February 23, 2012

You know you are a girlfag, when..

J. tipped me about a new blog for girlfags (female to male crossdreamers who are attracted to gay men).


The wonderful title You Know You are a Girlfag When tells us that this is not the place for extensive academic analysis. Instead we are presented with small sayings and aforisms that capture the life of girlfags.

"You know you are a girlfag when your husband thanks your best friend (who is a gay guy) for taking you out guy-watching and 'turning you straight'!

"You know you are a girlfag when you're disappointed a  hot guy hits on you because you had hoped he was gay."

"You know you are a girlfag when you follow loads of blogs that post pictures of guys kissing but sometimes you can hardly face your dashboard because it makes you feel so sad."

Male to female crossdreamers may find the strong focus on male gay relationships confusing, as gay males are not interested in female bodied persons -- even the crossdreaming ones. So why should a girlfag dream about gay men?

And the female to male crossdreamers may find their male bodied sisters confusing, as they sometimes dream of having sex with a man. If they were mirrors of each other, male to female crossdreamers should -- apparently -- only be interested in having lesbian sex. Right?

I think, in fact, the two groups truly mirror each other, and there are simple answers to the two questions.



To the first: The reason girlfags fantasize about gay men is that they dream about being men  or -- at least -- taking the male role in sex. But they are not homosexual as women. That is: They are atrracted to men (androphilic). The only way to have sex with a man as a man, is gay sex.

Moreover, the girlfag wants to be the dominant "masculine" partner, the "top", and since the M2F crossdreamers are not well known, the effeminate gay man becomes the only love object that makes sense, the one that will submit to a girlfag.

(Except, of course, that he won't, as he is attracted to men. This is the girlfag paradox and the girlfag tragedy.)

While girlfags may watch gay male porn and make up stories about men having sex with men, the male to female crossdreamer may fantasize about being a woman dominated by a strong woman. They want to be the receptive "bottom" and not the proactive "top".

As for the second question: Why do many male to female crossdreamers dream about having sex with a man? If they are androphilic, that would make sense, and some M2F crossdreamers are indeed turned on by men.

Still, even the gynephilic (woman-loving) male to female crossdreamers may fantasize about being taken by a man, while F2M crossdreamers seldom dream about sex with a woman. Why?

I think this is a cultural thing. To a certain extent crossdreamer fantasies follow the gender stereotypes.  The underlying dynamic is at least partly determined by a "feminine" or a "masculine" copulation instinct, the same top/bottom dichotomy we find in heterosexual non-transgender relationship and in many (but not all)  homosexual relationships.

In our culture being receptive is to be feminine and submissive (even if we all know that in real life women are just as strong and aggressive). That is, we draw a line from being the bottom when having sex to being meek and timid in other human relationships. The male to female crossdreamer has learned this.

They probably find the idea of putting the female to male crossdreamer in the role as the dominant sex partner unlikely for three reasons:

1. They have never heard about female to male dominant crossdreamers. The idea has never occurred to them.

2. The idea of dominance is subconsciously associated with body size and muscular strength. Women born women also often fantasize about being taken or embraced by strong protective arms. It may be a cultural thing. It may be a natural thing. But the fantasy is very common.

3. The desire for penetration requires a phallus, and most male to female crossdreamers haven't read about the virile women of the Kama Sutra..

By the way, the German researcher Uli Meyer has written som very interesting studies of girlfags and how they adapt Japanese comics and stories when dreaming of taking the male role. I will come back with a presentation of these studies later on, as a comparison between the online cultures of girlfags and male to female crossdreamers will help us better understand both groups.

More blog posts about girlfags.

35 comments:

AriadnaAzul said...

Jack, I am so glad to read more and more stuff about us, ftm crossdreamers/girlfags here.

In fact I have been wondering about the same things since I've found out I am a girlfag. You have kind of hit the nail on the head there with some answers. Here my own experience:

During all my life I could not reconcile the romantic attraction i felt towards males and my thrusting-dominant-non receptive sexuality. In fact, years before I found out Yaoi, I used to have the "faceless woman" fantasy, being her my receptive partner and me, her thrusting lover. This led me to think -wrongly- I was a lesbian during my adolescence. But in real life I never felt attraction/infatuation towards real women. While a handsome man would make me melt a pretty woman would have no effect on me. But then, the idea of playing bottom for a man wasn't arousing for me, and in fact was repulsive when it implied him dominating me. When I would watch straight porn I could easily identify with the male actor, and feel a temporary "desire" for the female. Then, it changed when i found out Yaoi: it was the greatest epiphany! it really reconciled my romantic attraction towards males and my masculine sexuality. I felt inmediately in love with the idea of having sex with a male displaying feminity as a bottom. This "uke" (bottom) embodied the object of my deepest desires: male but sexually feminine. Then, the "seme"( the top), who is the viril lover in yaoi stories, embodied the role I wanted play in sex: the top. But then this led me to-for a while- accept as true the most extended girlfag falacy: "I am a gay man trapped in a woman's body because I feel attracted to gay men." Currently I know there's nobody trapped inside me: I am not a gay man, I am a happy female with a "masculine"(thrusting) sexuality. And I love it. I just enjoy the roles being reversed in sex. I am feminine and perfectly happy as a woman in my daily life. Except in bed. I don't think this makes me transsexual, does it? :) I don't think it changes who I am and my identity. Now I also know my "kink" is not about gay males, it is about males displaying a feminine sexuality (also feminizing myself a straight man by topping him). As far as I know, not every gay man is feminine sexually, even if bottom. Also I have discovered that I experience more intense arousals by reading about mtf crossdreamers than real gay men; and in fact, lately, I have realized that the thought of a gay man despising me and feeling disgusted about my female anatomy is a big turn off. Not sure all my fellow girlfags are yet at this point but following this blog/forum for several months and meeting mtf crossdreamers has helped me a lot to find out who I really am. And, in fact, now I can see myself in my fantasies as a powerful woman.

boi wife said...

Dear AriadnaAzul,

Your feelings mirror my own, but mine are from the feminized male perspective.i am and always will be male, but i have an overwhelming desire to be taken by a Dominant and masculine Woman as Her "wife". my personality has always been submissive and while in my day to day existence i play the role of the strong male, tall, in good shape, attractive, successful in my professional career, what i crave is to come home to my Goddess, slip into something sleek and feminine, cook Her dinner an pamper and spoil Her. Just like a good 1950s style housewife would be portrayed. Sexually i have no need of my penis. i would much rather orally please my Goddess and be taken with Her wonderful girl cock. i love the concept of Your "thrusting"sexuality! It fits so well with my (and many other men if truth be told) need to be fucked by a Woman!! i hope someday to find my Goddess and be Her very happy boi-wife!!

Anonymous said...

Long time reader who really appreciates someone giving serious thought to these issues.

I worry that while you are frank about so much, using terms like "girlfag" and "guydyke," accepted as they may be within certain circles, contain terms which are considered rather offensive in a different context (in my mind they are equivalent to referring to a black person by some variation on a word starting with n.) I think this may be off-putting, to some extent myself, but also to others that may be seeing all this for the first time, and won't win many friends in the gay community, however they may stray into the picture (seems they would be among the least likely, but who knows. I guess it's a credibility issue.)

Fully admitted, I may just be a prude and oversensitive, I've been accused of it before.

I would not say this but for the exacting and extensive attention you have paid to various names and labels throughout your well thought out and researched postings. It hasn't been said near as I can tell, and thought it needed to be pointed out. It won't really affect the utility of this site, at least not to me.

That said, please keep doing what you are doing, and do not take this as a general criticsim. I likely speak for many of the silent by saying you give that voice to which normally remains unsaid, and that takes a certain degree of courage many others wish we had.

Jack Molay said...

@AriadnaAzul

Thank you for sharing this. It makes a lot of sense to me as a M2F crossdreamer.

From what you write it seems clear to me that you are not transsexual.

And it has to said again and again: Only some transgender people experience gender dysphoria and a deep dissatisfaction with their own bodies.

And from what I have learned from you and your friends, some crossdreamers may actually misinterpret their own transgender condition as transsexuality, simply because they are unable to imagine a life as the dominant woman or submissive man in sexual terms. At that point becoming the opposite sex may seem to be the only solution.

Jack Molay said...

@Anonymous

"I worry that while you are frank about so much, using terms like "girlfag" and "guydyke," accepted as they may be within certain circles, contain terms which are considered rather offensive in a different context."

I have given that some thought. It was, for instance, the offensive connotations associated with the word "autogynephilia" that made me coin the term crossdreamer.

And yes, terms like girlfag and gudyke are comparable to the N. word. Only African Americans can use the N. word.

But in this case the terms girlfag and guydyke are made and used by crossdreamers. Following the N. analogy, we -- as transgender crossdreamers -- are definitely allowed to use them.

These words are again based on terms borrowed from the gay community, and the gay community has often adopted offensive terms and made them their own, including terms like fags and dykes.

That being said, I normally stick to the term crossdreamer, adding M2F and F2M when needed. I only use the terms "guydyke" and "girlfag" when referring to sites and communities that use them about themselves.

As you point out, readers that are unfamiliar with these terms may misunderstand the intention, even if these readers are crossdreamers themselves.

Mirame said...

My own crossdreamer sexuality seems to move between femme-lesbian attracted to boi types, and at other times seems more straight female attracted to men. When I was younger, my autogyniphilic fantasies were mostly lesbian, while now they are myself as female dominated by a male. Truthfully, I prefer the days when the lesbian fantasies prevailed, as in RL I am not attracted to men whatsoever, and while I am not homophobic, male on male sex is no turn on for me. I am not a transvestite, but I know I should have been born female. Yet the actual attempt to become female seems impossible. I don't hate my penis, but I never like to imagine using it. Sometimes I wish I were gay as it would make life simpler.

I feel as though the female personality I have suppressed for my entire life would make me a happier person if she could be expressed, yet I also value the male persona that I can display. I just need to know how I can express those parts of me that have been suppressed I guess because they are feminine, then I could be the person I was meant to be.

Jack Molay said...

@Mirame

It seems to me the reason some male to female transwomen insist that a male to female transgender person needs to hate her penis and her life as a man, is because living in the twilight zone becomes to confusing, frustrating and tiring.

But it is possible to be a woman born woman and chose the social role of a man, so why shouldn't a woman born man be able to do so? In other words: We have to distinguish between the stereotypical male persona (the face we show the world) and the underlying sex identity.

AriadnaAzul said...

@Boi Wife: Awww...the concept of that boi-wife's so cute and sexy. Definitely those are the reasons why I adore mtf crossdreamers♥ I really hope you can find your Goddess soon and be a happy boi-wife... :)

@Anonymous: Personally I never found the term "girlfag" as offensive. Also I never met a fellow girlfag who does. Although I prefer the term ftm crossdreamer, bc it describes us more accurately, but definitely finding offensive the term girlfag is the least of my concerns.

@Jack: You definitely hit the nail on the head again. And it is me who is thankful. I don't know what I would do without your blog. Great job, Jack...

Sherin said...

@Jack
The issue is sex-identity I guess?
What really do you mean by "sex-identity"?
Do you mean having self-image of a female? Or do you mean enjoying certain traits that are considered feminine by society, like say, taking a spa or flower bath?
I fail to see why a man liking flower baths or wanting to be desirable and submissive in sex should have the sex identity of female, or a girl wanting to sexually mount a male or another female should have the sex identity of a male?
Could this happen due too cultural assumptions regarding gender?
Is it like the case where a European suddenly finds himself liking Malaysian chocolates and hence concludes he has Malaysian blood?
I would like to say that if the brain makes this kind of association simply due to cultural norms, then it is deluded at best.

But of course I may be wrong and so, this sex identity may be due to some other reason only you know.

Jack Molay said...

@Sherin

I prefer to use the word sex identity to gender identity, as it seems to me that gender dysphoria is just as much about being born in the wrong body as being forced to play the wrong gender role.

Transsexual persons report a strong and intense discomfort with their body. This experience is real for most of them, and I doubt very much that they are deluded.

If you look at the broader transgender community, you will also find a lot of people who are not gender dysphoric and who are not alienated from their bodies or the sex of their bodies, but who still needs to express behaviors, feelings, and personality traits that are culturally assigned to the other sex.

A man "liking flower baths or wanting to be desirable and submissive in sex" does not necessarily have a female sex identity, but he might have.

There are transwomen who want to put up a wall between those that experience gender dysphoria and those that do not. And let there be no doubt about it: There is a big difference, socially and psychologically, between someone who wants to transition and one who feels no such need.

When you look at all of this from the viewpoint of crossdreaming, however, it is easy to see that there is an overlap between the two groups.

There are those that get aroused by the idea of playing out the role of the other sex, those who fantasize about having the body of the opposite biological sex without actually wanting "a new body" in real life, and those that feel an intense alienation from their own bodies and who feel that they should have been born as the opposite sex.

In other words: Some crossdreamers are transsexual; others are not.

Sherin said...

@Jack,
I am not talking of transsexual people who really feel alienated from their bodies.They are certainly not deluded.I am myself a post-op MTF transsexual woman and I know very well about what that means and how painful it feels.

But then, I find association with effeminate and hypersensual 'metrosexual' men disturbing. As also the association of FTM transsexual men with sensual fetishists like girlfags.

This is because transsexualism is really not about sex roles in bed. It is about feeling a mismatch between the brain's inner image of the self and the real outside body, independent of sex roles and gender roles.
As mentioned by Julia Serano:

"Our subconscious sex is hardwired to our sense of self, independent of either appearance or socialization"
"After twenty years of self-exploration, I concluded that my female subconscious sex had nothing to do with gender-roles,femininity or sexual expression-it was about personal relationship I had with my own body"

Sherin said...

As regards people who fall under the umbrella category of "transgender" but are not transsexual, it is due to some personality traits.
There are men who seem to have more estrogen in their systems and females who are more androgenized.
These men and women exhibit some gender-discordant traits,such as hyper-sensitive men and hyper-sportive women. But since they are not wanting to change sex,it really means they are not transgender.It simply means culture has a narrow definition of what it means to be a man or woman.

Jack Molay said...

@Sherin

"But then, I find association with effeminate and hypersensual 'metrosexual' men disturbing. As also the association of FTM transsexual men with sensual fetishists like girlfags."

I am not sure metrosexuals even consider themselves transgender. They are definitely not transsexual.

The F2M "girlfags" represent one variant of crossdreamers. Some of them are truly transsexual, others are not. Some of them hate their female bodies, others do not.

As far as I can see, few of them are fetishists (in the sense of being erotically fixated on some particular object).

But many of them dream of taking the traditional male role during intercourse, and some of them hate to be restrained by stereotypical feminine behaviors and interests. That does not make them perverts.

By the way: It is interesting to note that F2M crossdreamers are rarely considered crossdressers, while M2F are. Since women are allowed to dress up as men regardless, the F2M crossdressing does not -- to the same extent -- become eroticized.

This tells me, at least, that the crossdressing "fetish" is not the cause of the transgender condition of M2F crossdressers, but an effect of it.

But then again, many transwomen start out as crossdressers. I would hate to see them reduced to fetishists.

AriadnaAzul said...

@Sherin:

"But then, I find association with effeminate and hypersensual 'metrosexual' men disturbing. As also the association of FTM transsexual men with sensual fetishists like girlfags."

Could you explain to all the "effeminate hypersensual metrosexual" & "sensual fetishist girlfags" here what you find so "disturbing"? I mean, personally I find more disturbing the derogatory way you describe us. I hope I am wrong and you didn't mean to be offensive.

Perhaps you are more female than the cisfemales themselves, but why would you feel disturbed being related to us? perhaps you consider us as perverts? that is pretty unfair coming from a person who must suffer bigotry from cispeople.

You were born in the wrong body, I was born with a reversed sexuality. I feel respect and emphaty to any kind of non comformist person, and even if i feel i am not related to FTM transmen, (absolutely not, no doubts) i respect them. You decided to get the right body for you. Bravo! Why should I be called a fetishistic sensual girlfag for expressing my innate reversed sexuality??

Sherin said...

@AdrianaAzul

With due respect,I want to say that any kind of sexuality is a form of fetish. It is essentially a form of fetish to like fondling breasts (for a heterosexual man/lesbian) as much as fondling penis (for a homosexual male or straight woman!)
Different people acquire different fetishes during the course of their lifetimes and this gives rise to different sexualities and sexual oreintations.
So, while, all sexuality is a fetish, gender identity is not!

Gender identity is real as it is about the self-image to the core.
The real pain occurs not in defying societal gender norms but when the subconscious and conscious sexes are at odds with one another.
It is difficult to live this dual life and that is why transgenders go through all that pain and cost to transition.
Yet,that said,we all have sexual fetishes of sorts. Even I do and I don't disrespect anyone who does. But that was not my cause of SRS, neither does it define my gender in any way. It is a separate independent aspect of my personhood just like it is so for non trans men and women.
You have a "reverse" sexuality, cheers! Enjoy it in your female body.No need to think you are male.

@Jack,
"I am not sure metrosexuals even consider themselves transgender. They are definitely not transsexual. "

I mentioned them as they take on roles that are deemed socially feminine, sometimes ultrafeminine. Some metrosexual men are more beauty conscious than vain working women. I cited them to prove that finding traditional masculine
(or feminine) roles restraining does not make one transgendered.
You say you dream of having a female body because you want to express these traits. However,I am sure I never wanted the female body due to these reasons.

"But many of them dream of taking the traditional male role during intercourse, and some of them hate to be restrained by stereotypical feminine behaviors and interests. That does not make them perverts."

I have already explained my own observations regarding effeminate men and butch ladies. I am sure many of them defy gender stereotypes brazenly and I admire them for this wholeheartedly. But I am not convinced they should be called transgendered. Not atleast unless they have a subconscious image of themselves as the opposite gender of their birth-sex.

wxhluyp said...

@Sherin

"I want to say that any kind of sexuality is a form of fetish. It is essentially a form of fetish to like fondling breasts (for a heterosexual man/lesbian)"

-I'm very happy to read this, and I'd also emphasize that anthropological attraction (androphilia and gynephilia) are also fetishistic constructions.

"So, while, all sexuality is a fetish, gender identity is not!
Gender identity is real as it is about the self-image to the core."

-The very same principle goes for all identification. Semiotically there can not be any pre-given images, as representation is a differential process. But then Those who wish to affirm an innate gender identity claim that they have, for example always felt less aggressive than others. Whilst aggression as a mediating force upon the symbolic is genetically higher in the male sex, this DOES NOT denote that you "feel like a gender", it denotes that you have correlated with lower levels of aggression in relation to a social generalization of others. There is no "inner gender", just genderless mediating forces like "aggression". I empathize greatly with those who feel uncomfortable in their shell, but justification to change does not need to be based on fallacious notions of innate identity.


@Jack Molay

"But then again, many transwomen start out as crossdressers. I would hate to see them reduced to fetishists."

-I hate the idea of painting innocent people who house harmless "diverse" arousal, as gender-dysphoric.

Lindsay said...

@Sherin

"But since they are not wanting to change sex,it really means they are not transgender.It simply means culture has a narrow definition of what it means to be a man or woman."

But isn't that the point. Anyone who falls outside of the "narrow definition" should be called transgendered. Forty years ago homosexuals would of been considered transgendered but are now recognized by the mainstream. Eventually most sexual orientations will be seen as part of a vast array of normal behaviors. I would hope that sometime in the future there won't be a transgendered category.

Also, in the first sentence, don't you mean to use transsexual? Having a sex change is not a requirement to be a part of the transgendered umbrella.

Sherin said...

@Lindsay,
I am not sure if homosexuals were actually seen as transgendered 40 years back.Just that there was some conspiracy among the politically correct psychologists to label them as such so that society confused homosexuality with transgenderism.
Actually the ones who propagated the concept were themselves transgendered. Like Karl Ulrichs.

However, with the coming out of masculine homosexual men and feminine lesbians in recent years, that theory has been rejected.

" I would hope that sometime in the future there won't be a transgendered category."

I would say that even if gender roles disappear, there would be many of us who would want to change their sex. This is because our mental map of ourselves differs from the real outer body.
So yes, the umbrella term of transgender might go away but transsexualism would still exist!

AriadnaAzul said...

@Sherin:

"With due respect,I want to say that any kind of sexuality is a form of fetish."

I absolutely don't believe that any kind of sexuality is fetishist. I have vastly explained my points of views about this in the comments of the previous Jack's post about the Kamasutra and the virile women. I am glad you weren't meaning to be offensive although.

"You have a "reverse" sexuality, cheers! Enjoy it in your female body.No need to think you are male."

That was my point! In fact we agree in this: I don't consider myself as transgender. My gender is "female". It doesn't mean that willing to paint my nails or wearing high heels make me a female (i do wear high heels and make up, and i paint my nails) but i feel pretty comfortable with my current gender. I just can't bear the traditional sexual role assigned to females. In past I have had fantasies about having a male body and genitalia during intercourse but anymore, although i don't think that made me transgender. In fact I think the term should dissapear.

@Lindsay

"Eventually most sexual orientations will be seen as part of a vast array of normal behaviors. I would hope that sometime in the future there won't be a transgendered category."

Amen! Such a wise statement, Lindsay! I totally agree with you. :)

@wxhluyp:

You hear (or read, in this case) the word "fetish" and in a heartbeat you are here selling us your ideas. XD lol.. :) no offense... It is just you seem to be very fond of the term.

wxhluyp said...

@AriadnaAzul

"You hear (or read, in this case) the word "fetish" and in a heartbeat you are here selling us your ideas. XD lol.. :) no offense... It is just you seem to be very fond of the term."

-Fetish, its a pretty key term here. I help when I can ;)

Bee said...

"Perhaps you are more female than the cisfemales themselves"

Seriously??!! Being female is a biological state. Not a feeling a man has.

Sherin said...

@AdrianaAzul
"I absolutely don't believe that any kind of sexuality is fetishist"

You do so because you really have experienced things that way.
But you must know that while transgenderism has always existed, sexual orientation hasn't!
There used to be a time not too long back when passionate same-sex friendships used to be very common without any separate identity of homosexual. there used to be time when the most sacred love was considered to be between two men rather than the media played heterosexual romance displayed today.
But even at that time when there was no separate gay man,transgenders existed!

Sexuality as a social identity is a creation of a society that is trying to civilize itself but only by moving away from nature. Sexual fetishes can be diverse but identities based on them are not natural.But, gender identity is as natural as the days go.
Freud had already posited the latent bisexual potential of all humans even if he himself was the pioneer of the concept of sexuality.

AriadnaAzul said...

@Sherin

:) With due respect, my name is "Ariadna", not "Adriana".

Well, your attempts to educate me made me smile. No, thanks. I am educated myself.

"There used to be a time not too long back when passionate same-sex friendships used to be very common without any separate identity of homosexual." This I already knew. And yeah, you are right in this.

"There used to be time when the most sacred love was considered to be between two men rather than the media played heterosexual romance displayed today." This I already knew too. And again, you are right.

"But even at that time when there was no separate gay man,transgenders existed!" The concept of homosexuality as a separated cathegory ("sexual orientation") is certainly new, on the other hand, same-sex coitus as a part of human sexuality exist since the dawn of human history. Of course I know this. In which way this proves "transgenderism" is an accurate term?

You are confusing "gender" with copulatory roles/drives.

"Freud had already posited the latent bisexual potential of all humans" This is a proof of my own statements, not yours. Which is funny.

And so far my response. I am not interested in keeping this discussion alive, since you seem to believe I am not allowed to have my own opinions and points of view. Let me say, convincing me to think like you is a sterile task you shoulnd't engage in.

Have a good day.

Ariadna

AriadnaAzul said...

@Bee
""Perhaps you are more female than the cisfemales themselves""

"Seriously??!! Being female is a biological state. Not a feeling a man has."

Certainly some people can't recognize what sarcasm and irony is.

Sherin said...

@AriadnaAzul,
" Of course I know this. In which way this proves "transgenderism" is an accurate term?"
You perhaps failed to get my gist here.
I intended to say that sexuality as a separate category is artificial social construct as the definitions and parameters of sexual orientation have been changing with time.
Even sex roles such as copulatory drives/instincts and also masculine/feminine roles change with time.
However, transsexualism as a category is not a social construct because the definitions and parameters of gender-identity haven't been changing with time.
Transsexuals have always existed and have always desired to have the body of the opposite gender.
Same-sex coitus has always existed but not among a certain separate group of humans as it is today.Bisexuality was universally acknowledged in ancient times.
This means, sexuality is an artificial category, while transsexual is a natural category. Because many or most people might engage in same-sex coitus under appropriate circumstances,but everyone cannot be transsexual under even the most appropriate circumstances.

" I am not interested in keeping this discussion alive, since you seem to believe I am not allowed to have my own opinions and points of view. Let me say, convincing me to think like you is a sterile task you shoulnd't engage in. "

I am not trying to convince anyone. The things I told are easily verifiable facts that can be found by anyone willing to honestly look behind social facades.

Lindsay said...

@Sherin

Can you please post links to your facts. I'd like to take you at your own word, but it's hard to trust anyone on the internet.

Anonymous said...

I just stumbled on this debate and will add my 50cents in it.

There is no need to throw the biological/genetic/hard wired explanation of crossdreaming with the cultural/sociological/fetishistic approach at war on each other. We are going to replay the same dividing lines existing between scientific fields that have proven to restrict more complete explanations of human conduct.

Now, I am not sure that being transexual would be more hard wired of fundamental as copulating instincts, that, by comparison, would be culturally determined. In fact, studies of hormonal balances on mamals tend to show that copulating instinct have a hard-wired, hormonal basis. For instance, modifying the hormonal regime of some mamals have consequences on their mating behavior. And we also can't deny that this behavior is often structured by an "active/receptive" dichotomy. I don't even talk about dominant/submissive here.

Once again, it does not go against the fact that those mating behavior are also fetishistic. I also believe that any human sexuality is culturally and symbolically mediated. We are human being, so we always have to add to the biological wiring another all encompassing realm of cultural meaning and symbolic representations.

AriadnaAzul said...

@Anonymous:

Wise words! I couldn't agree more with you! :) Definitely you have been very keen and smart in this. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Ariadna. I think its important that we discuss with openness and respect. Those issues matter for most of us and we tend to be engaged in an emotional and existential level -mainly, finding who we are!

And discussions and theories about crossdreaming are not only about babbling and speculating. The way we concieve crossdreaming is crucial since it partly determines how we are going to deal with it.

Reading this blog and other insights of crossdreaming challenging Blanchard and Co concept of autogynephilia made me realize that I am not a self absorbed narcissist who would not be able to love anyone, let alone himself.

I don't say knowing more about crossdreaming will solve our issus or provide ready made answers for all of us, but it is yet a crucial stage. For some people, it is about transitionning or not! Should this decision belong to or be encouraged by a gender therapist? I don't think so.

This divide between cultural and psychoanalytic interpretation and biological and genetic insights needs to be tackled to its core, as crossdreaming is a fully human(and, as Jack suggests in the Kama Sutra article, probably universal) phenomena involving a complex interraction between a hardwired biological basis and an all compassing set of cultural meanings.

AriadnaAzul said...

@Anonymous:

"Thank you Ariadna. I think its important that we discuss with openness and respect. Those issues matter for most of us and we tend to be engaged in an emotional and existential level -mainly, finding who we are!

And discussions and theories about crossdreaming are not only about babbling and speculating. The way we concieve crossdreaming is crucial since it partly determines how we are going to deal with it."

Certainly you are so right :) We need more posts like yours. All what you have said makes sense and I can't agree more.

Will be looking forward to see more from you. :)

Sherin said...

@Lindsay,
The ancient Greek mythology around love goes like this. There were three kinds of gender amongst gods -- man, woman and hermaphrodite (third gender). Once the king of god Zeus, got angry with the gods and cut them into half. Then he relented and sent them to earth as humans. As per this myth, each human is one half of the god, and in life seeks to unite with his or her or hir other half. The two halves of man god seek each other in love, to unite and become one godly force again. The two halves of women god, unite in the same way. The hermaphrodite god was split into man and woman, and so the male hermaphrodite seeks union with the female hermaphrodite. In this mythology, its clear that its heterosexuality that is the essence of hermaphroditism/ third gender/ lbgt, and this mythology is backed up solidly by both biological, historical and real life examples of real heterosexuals.

As far as links go, I have found many in the net that echo the same views:
http://miscellaneous-notes.blogspot.in/

http://miscellaneous-notes.blogspot.in/

http://notes-on-third-gender.blogspot.in/

http://anti-man-science.blogspot.com/

http://www.genders.org/g41/g41_dennis.txt

http://arewomenhuman.wordpress.com/2011/06/19/manly-men-of-yore/

Enjoy reading. I will post more if I find later on.
In any case,I sometimes think we dont need research papers of biased scientists to know self-evident truths. Because, truths are sometimes all around us, just that we fail to notice them as we are blinded by the cultural definitions.

Jack Molay said...

" truths are sometimes all around us, just that we fail to notice them as we are blinded by the cultural definitions."

Sometimes I find that the "new" insights I gain from working on theses issues, are "truths" I have know all along. I have just not been able to put them in context. This is why the development of alternative narratives are so important. Suddenly you see that rearranging the pieces of the puzzle gives you a completely different picture.

Thanks of the links, by the way. I will take a close look at all of them.

PrettyGirlFag said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
PrettyGirlFag said...

I'm what you call a girlfag but not a dreamer. I have sex with bisexual and gay men often in a very real way. I gender identify as a woman but I love gay sex with bi and gay men as well as straight sex with men too. I have sexy body and I love my vagina. I also enjoy the fantasy of having sex with my strap-on. If anything, that's my fetish. I am a top but I freely submit to men of all sexual identities. My husband is my Dominant Top but he also bi bottoms for me and other men. We play with other bi or gay couples. We are pretty happy with our sex life :)

PrettyGirlFag

Jack Molay said...

@prettygirlfag

I guess you represent another variation of the wonderful world of human nature. Thank you for sharing this! I especially appreciate that you show us the possibility of being different in a stable relationship.