October 28, 2009

The Hero and the Princess (Should Autogynephilia be Treated?)

I need your help again!

One of my readers have added an interesting comment to one of my previous post. The comment is about an hormone treatment aimed at reducing his libido (sex drive) and through that his feminization fantasies.

Have any of you been offered such a treatment or any other treatment for autogynephilia, and would you care to share your experience? Moreover, do you think autogynephilia should be treated as disorder or disease?


The comment


"What would be interesting is some research into treatment options for sufferers of autogynephilia. A treatment option I use is to take low dose female hormones via my doctor. 25mg patches. This does seem to to keep my GID [Gender Identity Disorder] under control. The low dose hormone works well and keeps my head clear.

I have fully confessed my autogynephilia to both my care givers who seem to feel this is a good treatment option for me.

I guess I'm allergic to my own testosterone or its own natural levels are to high for me. My autogynephilia demands that I feminise myself, whilst doing so I'm also damping the nasty nagging of autogynephilia.

The desire does not go completly but it's easier to deal with. I have had a six month break from hormones (after 2 years) , and the autogynephilic desires are back stronger than ever.

I'm fighting with myself as to what to do, either go back on the patches and accept a more feminine lifestyle or battle with myself as a male.

The autogynephilic demon is offering me the ability to obtain my life long desire of feminisation. But at the same time something which is so desirable for me is also so very frightening."

A disease or something natural?

Here is my comment:

Actually, there isn't much online regarding treatment for autogynephilia, nor is there any agreement on whether this is a disorder that actually requires treatment.

Although I am not completely sure, I have become more and more convinced that autogynephilia is an expression of a natural phenomena, not a disease.

Some men have some kind of mix of female and male traits, and their feminine side expresses itself through cross-dressing and/or erotic fantasies of having a woman's body.

I am not a doctor and cannot give medical advice. As a fellow autogynephiliac, though, I find it strange that you seem to think that your autogynephilia is caused by some kind of testosterone overdose.

You have clearly a strong sex drive (which is not unnatural) , and being an autogynephiliac it is quite natural that this libido is channeled into fantasies of this kind. This is the case for me as well. Had I been a "normal" man I would have fantasized about "normal" sex, and no doctor would have found that strange or worrying.

Overwhelming feelings

Still, I do understand that these feelings can at times get so overwhelming, dominating and frightening, that it may seem that the only way to get a normal life is to go for a mild form of hormone or drug treatment (e.g by using female hormones to reduce the sex drive, but not to generate a transition to womanhood).

I wonder if it would be better to go to some kind of open-minded psychologist instead, not to get cured of your autogynephilia, but to get a sound outlet for your anxiety and fears. This might help you get a better understanding of yourself and help you find peace with your feminine side.

Personally I have found that I have learned more from facing my demons, and from integrating the seemingly "nasty" side of my own psyche into my own personality. I have also learned that by facing my shadow side -- i.e. the parts of my own personality that may seem negative and frightening --- I have become a more complete person and, I believe, a better person.

The Hero's Journey

I believe thinkers like Carl Gustav Jung and Joseph Campbell are right when they say that the stories, myths and fairy tales about heros battling trolls and dragons, are really about our own struggle with repressed desires.

The hero has to confront these desires and come to terms with them (kill the dragon).
When he does so, the psychic energies are let loose. The wasteland again becomes fertile and the hero gets his princess.

That is: What seemed to be something dangerous and negative, turned out to be something good - the life force itself. We have to change our attitude towards that life force in order to get access to it.

You are the hero of your own life, but it seems to me that your helpers are actually stopping you from coming to terms with your feminine side, and that might be a mistake.

Giving your desires form

Two years ago I was completely overwhelmed with the desire for feminization. I had suppressed this side of me for so long, that I was no longer able to keep the flood back. Hadn't it been for the fact that I knew quite a lot about psychic processes, I would probably have feared for my own sanity.

I did understand what was going on, though, so instead of repressing these desires, I let them find their expression by writing down the fantasies. I guess other art forms or talk therapy could have worked equally well.

Then I started this blog, in order to talk with other autogynephiliacs like you and in order to develop a language that might make what was happening make more sense.

Now, two years later, the feelings are no longer overwhelming. The fantasies are still there (and probably always will be), but they no longer stop me from having a "normal" life. I am determined to continue working with my autogynephilia, not to kill my "inner princess" but to accept her as a natural part of myself.

Whether this means that I will go for sex reassignment, I don't know. And whether you should seriously consider a sex change is not for me to say either, as that would depend on your unique life situation, which I do not know.

I seriously think that you should take the hero's journey, though, battle your dragon and get to know your princess. It is best to have someone around to help you on that journey, because it can be very hard indeed. Find an understanding loved one, an open-minded therapist or a non-condemning spiritual adviser to talk to!



UPDATE ON TERMINOLOGY

Since this blog post was written I have stopped using the terms "autogynephilia" and "autoandrophilia" to describe people. The reason for this is that the terms implicitly communicates an explanation for why some people get aroused by imagining themselves as the opposite sex . This explanation, that this is some kind of autoerotic paraphilia,  is both wrong and stigmatizing. Instead I use the neutral term "crossdreamers".

Click here for a discussion of the dark side of the autogynephilia theory.

46 comments:

Anonymous said...

"I am not a doctor and cannot give medical advice. As a fellow autogynephiliac, though, I find it strange that you seem to think that your autogynephilia is caused by some kind of testosterone overdose."

The root cause for me does seem to be with testosterone. I tried using Androcur for a short while which blocks all testosterone in your body. The drug really does clear you out of all testosterone. During this period ALL autogynephilic thoughts are erased, you can't even remember why you want to appear as female. Problem is the zest for life and energy also goes with it too. So a compromise with lower T levels via estrogen helps.

I am very curious regarding post op autogynephilic (AGP) transsexuals. Some say the AGP fantasies continue even post op. I guess this is because there are still low T levels in the system (from the pituitary gland) being produced that gives just enough to allow the AGP to surface without it being too much of an issue.

Jack Molay said...

I get it. What you have observed is that there is a clear correlation between the male sex hormone and autogynephiliac fantasies, which may indicate that autogynephilia is caused by the testosterone.

Like you I would love to hear what post-op autogynephiliacs have to say about their post-op fantasies. I know for sure that a lot of transsexuals read transgender erotica, which may indicate that they still find such fantasies a turn-on.

I do not doubt that there autogynephilia has a clear sexual foundation. I still hesitate to say that testosterone causes autogynephilia. After all, all men have some amount of testosterone in their blood, but only a small percentage of them have fantasies of this kind. There must be a factor X that causes directs their sexual drive towards the idea of becoming a woman.

Jack

Anonymous said...

Testosterone stimulates that fantasy area of the brain. If your brain is wired autogyneplically then you'll experience such thoughts. If you're wired completely heterosexual then you'll fantasise about females.

Satisfying a paraphilia to it's ultimate conclusion - does it work? After all your brain is pushing you all the time to live out the fantasy.

Susanne said...

In my research on autogynephilia, I've also read that some have had luck with medications used to treat OCD. It seems to reduce their compulsions. I guess it makes sense.

With regards to whether or not autogynephilia should be treated, I guess it depends on whether or not you believe it to be a diagnosable psychological condition or just part of the natural gender spectrum. It also would depend on the level of pain the condition caused a person. For those who can find peace with themselves, why would they want to? But for those who find that autogynephilia causes them mental and emotional suffering, I can see where they might want to try to "change" themselves.

Linsie said...

I started taking herbal estrogen about six years ago, not to treat autogynephilia, be to feminize myself. But I was quickly surprised by the loss of my desire to be a woman. But when I quit taking estrogen, the desire quickly returns.

I think that when I'm on estrogen, I'm no longer a transexual. But I am still an autogynephiliac as I still fantasize about having sex as a woman.

The estrogen makes me feel much more centered and normal. I no longer feel out of place. The best description I can think of is that it feels like I've come home.

Dave K said...

For my own experience, and acknowledging that each of us has our own lives and circumstances -

Sometimes I have grief over my autogynephilia, because I have certain longings that cannot be fulfilled no matter what I do (e.g., I can't give birth or nurse a baby). But I also know that this type of grief belongs to many women.

Sometimes I also have fear and anxiety associated with it, especially with rejection from others.

However -

Once I started accepting and exploring my own gender identity, I have, for the most really enjoyed myself. As Susanne said, "For those who can find peace with themselves, why would they want to [change]?"

I don't want to lose this part of me. :)

Brij said...
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watch said...
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Nadine said...

I do not think that autogynephilia should be treated as a disease. I think that we as a society are too restrictive with our thoughts on gender. We are raised very early on to think that you are either male or female, and nothing in between. More over, if you are male you must act a certain way. My thoughts are, why can't you be a male and shave your legs, or wear nail polish, or wear a skirt, and still accept yourself as male. Somehow women in our society have come to be able to experience way more gender norm freedoms than males. Once upon a time women in pants were thought to be trying to act like men, but now we fully accept that women can wear pants and we don't look at it as a disease. I don't think any medical professional would prescribe them drugs to rid themselves of the desire to do so.

Jack Molay said...

@Nadine

It says a lot about our society that women playing the roles of men are OK, while men dressing up as women are not.

Even now our societies think of being a man as better than being a woman.

A. Quiet Voice said...

when a woman dons a pair of trousers, it is for reasons of practicality, comfort,r even a fashion statement.

When a man "presents" as a woman, (wigs, heels, makeup), that is not the same as a man in a kilt.

So how about we stop comparing apples and oranges just because they are both fruits.

Lindsay said...

AQV said:

"when a woman dons a pair of trousers, it is for reasons of practicality, comfort,r even a fashion statement.

When a man "presents" as a woman, (wigs, heels, makeup), that is not the same as a man in a kilt."

Why should it make any difference. People should be able to wear what makes them feel comfortable and not worry about making others uncomfortable. 50 years ago women and girls were expected to wear dresses most of the time, this is no longer true.

I think that you see dresses (and makeup and heels) as something that's been the exclusive domain of women and that because of that dresses have a special place in your heart. You're afraid that if it becomes socially acceptable for men to wear them that you will loose that special feeling.

A. Quiet Voice said...

ROFLMAO Your efforts at dissembling my statements are pathetic. Surely even a man of your intellectual stature can appreciate the difference between a cross-dressing transvestite trying to "pass/present" as a female, by wearing a wig and industrial strength pancake make up....and a man in a kilt.

Unlike you I have no special philias or fetishes for dresses.

"when a woman dons a pair of trousers, it is for reasons of practicality, comfort, or even a fashion statement". Unlike you CD's, there is no effort to transgress any gender barrier or vain attempts to "present" or "express" male.

Lindsay said...

Why did you refuse to answer my question?

"Why should it make any difference?"

Let me restate using some of your language.

If someone finds an article of clothing practical, comfortable or even stylish, why shouldn't they be able to wear it openly and without guilt?

Also, please try to reply without insults and put downs.

Jack Molay said...

@A Quiet Voice

Try at least to pretend to be civil. I have deleted your comment. Try again.

Lindsay said...

@ Jack

You should really leave her comments up so we can see what type of person she truly is.

Jack Molay said...

@Lindsay

I get your point, but at the same time I have to protect the local environment. I am afraid the fetishist and the separatist combined have raised the local toxicity levels above what normal safety regulations consider safe.

Because of this toxicity it seems that gender dysphoric crossdreamers in despair are less likely take part in the debate. This also applies to Crossdream Life. I am not going to allow this to continue.

@A Quiet Voice

Do not for a moment think that I do not understand what you are trying to do here.

I am, however, willing to be much more patient with you and other transsexual women than I am with the fetishistic separatist -- our of respect for your suffering and the courage you have shown.

But please consider the following:

If someone here called you a man in a frock, a fetishist, a autogynephilac, a gay effeminate man, would you not feel offended -- and rightfully so?

That is exactly what you are doing towards the crossdreamers and transsexuals taking part in this community.

There are many pre-op transsexual women taking part in these discussions. They need your help, they need your experience.

Be constructive! Be helpful! You can make a difference in a positive way.

A. Quiet Voice said...

Thank you Jack. I apologize to you if I have overreacted in anger to the constant provocation of some of your readers who quite frankly exhibit a hateful frustration with their own inadequacies and rather than acknowledge their own shortcomings and address them constructively, lash out at others who are in fact trying their best to bring some clarity and simple understanding to a much maligned and misunderstood experience.

On the other hand, have you not considered that many of your readers are in fact, "man in a frock, a fetishist, a autogynephilac, a gay effeminate man" and that they to have a legitimate right to their particular proclivities and should be entitled to express their frustration with being painted with that all inclusive "transgendered" or crossdreaming brush.

Jack Molay said...

@A Quiet Voice

"On the other hand, have you not considered that many of your readers are in fact, "man in a frock, a fetishist, a autogynephilac, a gay effeminate man"..."

No, these are derogatory terms used to harm and hurt, and that is the last thing people struggling with their identities and the meaning of their lives need.

I think it is fair to say that you have had the time and opportunity to express your view. I and others have tried to answer your questions in an open minded and constructive way.

But it is also clear that this leads nowhere. You continue to use this opportunity to denigrate transgender and transsexual people, and that is not what this blog is about.

I will kindly ask you to stay away from this blog in the future.

Parry Jonathan said...

@Jack Molay

"Even now our societies think of being a man as better than being a woman'

I could say it the other way round. It does seem to me most cultures are vehemently more anti-man because they want to always confine men to more narrow gender roles and stereotypes. Like, the claim by Baliney in 2005 that male bisexuality doesn't exist but females may be mostly bisexual(which is not true!), which shows that these researchers want to scare away men from anything fluid in terms of sexual or gender roles. Likewise, the claim by Blanchard of lesbian transwomen being "autogynephilic fetishists" is also in a way vehemently anti-male phenomenon and certainly not a misogynistic phenomenon because they did not ascribe the same thing to a female dressing male (in their books transmen did not even exist!).
The west seems to be vehemently anti-man. to the extreme while it gives huge rights to women.

A. Quiet Voice said...

Jack. I must protest your generic and authoritarian declaration that such terms as 'fetishist', 'gay effeminate man', 'man in a dress' and 'autogynephiliac' are pejorative or denigrating terms. They clearly are not. They are simple accurate discriptions.

How and/or why is a "gay effeminate man", a pejorative or derogatory? I certainly do not see it as such.

Similarly, 'autogynophiiac' is just a fancy Latin word for a man who is in love with the image of himself as a woman.

Please do not project your fears, doubts and other negative feelings onto others as it tends to preclude constructive social interaction.

If you insist that I leave I will of course respect your wishes as this is, after all, your blog. However, I would strongly suggest to you that so doing is to deprive your readers of someone who has no agenda and is only interested in pointing out some of your gross inaccuracies and misconceptions.

By your own admission you are still struggling to exist in a compromise with your "inner woman". I can respect that but submit that there exist many other alternatives to that approach.

Sadly it seems that your ego, or your fears prevent you from objectively evaluating those alternative approaches and sadly insist on pidgeon holing them into some arcane and easily dismissable strawman argument while at the same time demonizing those that offer such alternatives.

I would ask that you reconsider and suggest that perhaps you address those other readers that so actively resent and attack those that are not "just like them". You know of whom I speak.

Rather than openly and objectively address those issues that I raise you use your power as Master of this blog to silence my minority opinion.

A. Quiet Voice said...

@Parry

I disagree. You simply have to observe and consider the treatment of this particular woman on this, and almost every transgender blog.

Remember, these blogs are populated almost exclusively by men, "crossdreaming" as, or imagining themselves as women.

Those men treat the very few women that might have the temerity to comment very, very poorly. It has been my experience that should I disagree, i am summarily slapped down, dismissed and silenced.

Lindsay said...

What Jack said makes more since if you don't take it out of context. Here's his full statement:

"It says a lot about our society that women playing the roles of men are OK, while men dressing up as women are not.

Even now our societies think of being a man as better than being a woman."

Parry Jonathan said...

@A Quiet Voice,
So you are a woman? I did not know that.
And no, I don't see these crossdreamers here as men.Atleast not in the real true sense. The problem with our western culture is that every person with a penis and XY chromosomes is considered as a man, and his inner feelings and emotions that cannot be observed from outside easily, are dismissed. So just because a male appears very muscular from outside, it doesn't matter whether or not he has feminine emotions inside.-s long he looks and behaves like a man from outside, he cannot be a woman inside.
That kind of reasoning is a total fallacy because gender comprises both the outer as well as inner sex. There is something called as brain gender which is not visible from the outside. But just because it is not visible from outside doesn't make it less real or less valid.You are insulting several crossdreamers here if you insist on calling them a man even if they have gender fluidity. Funny thing is that you think it is your right to do so blatantly and disrespect people this way and yet insist that nobody opposes you.

Also, there is nothing wrong with being an 'effeminate gay man'. But it is wrong to push the label on someone who does not identify that way, just because from outside he appears to be so.
I am called an effeminate gay male by a lot of ignorant people around me because I have feminine mannerisms. But see how wrong people are. In reality, I am a female inside and not just an effeminate man.Secondly, I am attracted primarily to women so that is definitely not gay man. If anything else, it is being a lesbian trapped inside male body.
Autogynephilia isn't also a thing I relate with as I don't see myself as a man in the first place.If you call me a sexually charged woman, I wouldn't mind as much. But to say I am a sexually charged man feels wrong and not because of the sexual connotation but the gender.
This is the extent people's casting of stereotypes and prejudices on a person can become both wrong as well as utterly disrespectful.

Parry Jonathan said...

@Lindsay,
"Even now our societies think of being a man as better than being a woman."

I am sure that holds true but based on this, it would be the case that it is the men who end up suffering more due to lack of fluidity permitted in their gender and sexual roles. A female will get less for her fluidity in social lifestyle than a man. And this makes things difficult for the man.

Jack Molay said...

@A Quiet Voice

I repeat my request: Please make your arguments elsewhere from now on!

I have given you ample room to make your point, and your comments will stay on this blog for as long as it exists.

But this is a blog made for some very vulnerable groups of male to female and female to male transgender people.

Some of these are actually truly transsexual, in any sense of the word, and by arguing the way you do you are reducing them to "paraphiliacs". That is the last thing they need right now.

There are others who struggle hard to find a way to reconcile living their lives as men (or women, as might be) while having a personality that bridges both genders.

The last thing they need is to have people reduce them to being "fetishists" and "autogynephiles". The same applies to terms like "effeminate gay man", if what you are is not "effeminate", but feminine, and not "gay man", but lesbian woman.

You have your agenda: to build a wall between true transsexual women and the rest of the transgender community. It is your democratic right to make such an argument -- even here. And when I read what crossdreamers like whyxlup and Gottesman say about us all-- you and me included -- (that we all are fetishists and fetishists only), I can even understand some of the reasons for why you choose this tactic.

But this is to to be a place of healing, a place where crossdreamers and crossdressers can get help to find out who they truly are -- transsexual or not transsexual.

By indiscriminately stigmatizing all these different crossdreamers as perverts, you are stopping them from coming out and sharing their stories. I cannot allow this to continue.

Anonymous said...

We do not know surely if autogynephiliac did exist in ancient times, I rather think of not.

I currently have a theory, according to Freud more than to Jung (that has a lot of non-sense ideas), the more a society grews the more the istincts are repressed (maybe you are gay or bisexual, maybe you are straight and the repressed instincts are others). Then autogynephiliac is a new istinct caused by the repression the others. That means that if you were living in a tribe like in the ancient times you would not have autogynephiliac.

So if you want to heal the first step is recreate a tribe, build a group of friends and go out every single day all together to have fun. Plus start to do some kind of sport activity, have a good alimentation, respect your sleep and stay at sun light at least 20 minutes everyday.
(Scientists found out that active socialization activates a specific part of your brain. Think about what recreating a tribe could do more - scientists did not understand how brain and thoughts work)

Moreover I am convincted that autogynephiliac is reinforced from internet and most of the crossdreamers do a slow transiction into this stuff through porn addiction; you know that when you have an orgasm your brain produces a huge quanity of dopamine? so if you are watching the wrong porn or having the wrong fantasy it is easy that your brain will link that to your sexuality and as soon as you have a doubt about it you will try again and you would have another orgasm -that normal, you are jerking off- and you will start to think you actually have this kind of fantasies and then you begin to ask yourself if it normal.

Anonymous said...

Point number two, stop watching porn and stop masturbating for at least a month. Your brain will heal and go back to its equilibrium.

So you search autogynephiliac on internet and you discover a lot of things but there is no true and definitive solution. That is terrible, to have such a devasting doubt and no good study, no good advice only a bunch of people that say a thing, a bunch that say the opposite and many other bunches that say different things (and no, psychology is not a true science, pretty more a pseudo-science. I.e. It is not reliable). So you start to indulge in autogynephiliac because is the easier thing to do. Butthat does not mean it is the right thing to do.

Point number three, you have to fully understand that if you did not experienced it since childhood autogynephiliac has no motive to be considered normal. It is what your wrong lifestyle has led to. You need to understand this.

Autogynephiliac is a distortion of reality where a sensible person hides because his anxiety or rejection of reality. Reality is a metaphor, it is plastic -if you have studied hypnosis you know that- it can be bent and if you want you can do it. You can rewire you brain. Just think about nazi and people that is programmed to kill (if you don't believe me study hypnosis and watch Derren Brown shows about manipulation etc..). So what if you were manipulated by society? By the wrong habits? That the truth: there is nothing right in your sexual fantasies.
Another theory is that you are an experiment for reduce the population. This is pretty unrealistic but still possible.

The last point is the number four. Now you must to rewire your neurons, this is basic NLP, autosuggestion and immagination. You have to imagine to be a strong manly man with all yourself and all yoursenses. Identify youserlf with it because he is what you actually are, do not lie to yourself. If you think differently, the cause is the society that has turned you into something that is not a man anymore. I do not know what is it but is nor a man nor a woman nor a beast because beasts does exist in nature. It is something monstrous, like a chimera... like the dragoon you have to kill.

Anonymous said...

Accept the reality for what it is and yourself for what you are: a confused man. You will be good soon. Do not try to change it or accept it, it is dangerous, stupid and wrong like to jump into an abyss because your mind tricked you thinking it is sure (the reassignment intervent and hormones are dangerous).

You have a fucking cock down there so you are a man. No way you could be a woman.

I hope to have help who is clever enough to undestand my point of view. It is as good as any other theory that goes around about autogynephiliac.
Do not feel offended if you disagree.
I think that if you do not have those fantasies since your childhood and the beginning of your puberty then it cannot be correlated to phisical causes.

Escuse my poor english, it is not my native language.

Jack Molay said...

@Anonymous

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree. You make a lot of statements, but do not back it up with any substantial evidence. This blog, on the other hand, presents a lot of information that points in the opposite direction of what you are saying.

Note that crossdreaming is a concept I use to describe and understand the existence of men and women who get aroused by imagening themselves as the other sex. Due to the limits of our senses and our intellect there will never be a one to one relationship between our ideas of the world and the world itself.

That being said, I have definitely proved that crossdreaming is not a product of one particular culture. Not only is crossdreaming rampant all over the world today, it has also existed in other cultures far back in history.

Crossdreaming is not caused by porn on the Internet. it creates porn on the Internet.

This is easy to demonstrate. Magnus Hirschfeld wrote a book about crossdreaming as early as in 1910, and I can assure you, there wasn't much crossdreamer porn around then.

Many crossdreamers do not read porn, and most of them start feeling the way they due long before puberty and any interest in porn can appear. I know for a fact that I had crossdreams at the age of 9, and I reached puberty very late.

Doctors have tried NLP and all types of conditioning for making crossdreamers and crossdressers stop being what they are. I have never heard about anyone who have succeeded. In this respect crossdreaming is like homosexuality. It cannot be cured, and that alone tells me that there is a biological core to all of this.

You seem to define being a man as having a penis. If that is your definition, then -- of course -- no male to female transgender or transsexual person is a woman. But that is completely missing the point. The point is that there is some kind of misalignment between the sex identity and their biological sex. You cannot remove that misalignment with a definition.

I love your idea of the friendly and understanding tribe, but it seems to me that you have very strict criteria for who should be allowed to play with that tribe.

Jack Molay said...

@Anonymous

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree. You make a lot of statements, but do not back it up with any substantial evidence. This blog, on the other hand, presents a lot of information that points in the opposite direction of what you are saying.

Note that crossdreaming is a concept I use to describe and understand the existence of men and women who get aroused by imagening themselves as the other sex. Due to the limits of our senses and our intellect there will never be a one to one relationship between our ideas of the world and the world itself.

That being said, I have definitely proved that crossdreaming is not a product of one particular culture. Not only is crossdreaming rampant all over the world today, it has also existed in other cultures far back in history.

Crossdreaming is not caused by porn on the Internet. it creates porn on the Internet.

This is easy to demonstrate. Magnus Hirschfeld wrote a book about crossdreaming as early as in 1910, and I can assure you, there wasn't much crossdreamer porn around then.

Many crossdreamers do not read porn, and most of them start feeling the way they due long before puberty and any interest in porn can appear. I know for a fact that I had crossdreams at the age of 9, and I reached puberty very late.

Doctors have tried NLP and all types of conditioning for making crossdreamers and crossdressers stop being what they are. I have never heard about anyone who have succeeded. In this respect crossdreaming is like homosexuality. It cannot be cured, and that alone tells me that there is a biological core to all of this.

You seem to define being a man as having a penis. If that is your definition, then -- of course -- no male to female transgender or transsexual person is a woman. But that is completely missing the point. The point is that there is some kind of misalignment between the sex identity and their biological sex. You cannot remove that misalignment with a definition.

I love your idea of the friendly and understanding tribe, but it seems to me that you have very strict criteria for who should be allowed to play with that tribe.

Anonymous said...

"In my research on autogynephilia, I've also read that some have had luck with medications used to treat OCD. It seems to reduce their compulsions. I guess it makes sense."

Yes, i have OCD and i know i have had OCD ever since i was a kid, but i have not had any gender issues during my childhood or teens, i just wasn't as masculine as others and perhaps a love shy. I also didn't have feminine interests or AGP fantasies, i almost always watched straight porn and sometimes i enjoyed being submissive in a gay context but also dominant. AGP started exactly during the time my trans-OCD started. I don't deny i have a feminine or submissive side, but this has felt more forced than natural. I am about to start OCD treatment soon and i have noticed how my AGP goes away during my lesser OCD periods! A lot is driven by it but not all. And no, i don't mind having AGP during my highs but during my worst of periods, it overwhelms my thoughts negatively!

Jack Molay said...

@Anonymous

May I ask you a question? You mention a "gay context". Would you say that -- as a biological man -- you consider yourself mainly androphilic (attracted to men), gynephilic (attracted to women) or bisexual?

I guess your childhood "non-masculinity", your submissive side, your crossdreamer fantasies and your OCD could all be caused by some underlying factor. If that is the case, do you have any idea what that could be?

Anonymous said...

@Jack

I watched gay porn and enjoyed being both submissive but at times even dominant as a male.
OCD is a biological condition and not a cause. I have been a hypocondriac, worrying about much other stuff far from my gender and sex.. During my childhood and teens i wanted to be stronger and more maleish but i was dissapointed that i wasn't. I tried to grow a beard and i pictured myself as an adult male, again, i didn't have fantasies of becoming female. I guess i have a submissive feminine side boosted by OCD. I worry about possibly turning into a woman rather than enjoy it although sexually, this turns me on and at times it is okay. Mostly, don't feel trapped in the wrong body nor think i should have been born a woman but sometimes these feminine thoughts excite me very much. What do you think?

Janet Wall said...

Here is my view, a bit late to the reading of this discussion.

I was clearly an autogynephilia identifying male (even though I'd never heard that word, I clearly fitted that model).

But while sexual arousal was a strong part of my being, also was going out as a woman and interacting with people as a woman. In some ways I felt I had to get rid of my sexual urge before I could comfortably go out as a woman. I would relieve myself myself at home prior to going out, then go out feeling calm and happy.


So I began to feel that I was more than a tranvetic fetishist because interacting as a woman began to be more important to me. I had to remove the sexual desire before I could successfully interact as a woman. It was starting to get in the way of me leading my life.

So, in my mind if I was just a fetishist, I'd masturbate get undressed and go to sleep surely?

After much anguish I came to the conclusion that living full time is the only way to go for me.
I started the NHS care pathway, knowing full well that my sex drive will disappear. This I reasoned will sort the boys from the girls so to speak.

Indeed, my desire to be a woman throughout the process remained strong regardless of a non existant sex drive.

And now, I'm a successful post op woman. I have no autogynephiliac desires anymore. I made the right decision for me. However I still have no sex drive. Does it bother me? occasionally if I'm truthful. My endocrinologist has offered me testosterone to resolve my lack of sex drive. I think you may guess what my answer was!

My feeling on the subject leans towards autogynephilia being a symptom of my dysphoria and not the cause.

I have read up and tried to understand the theory behind autogynephilia, and apart from using it to discredit transgender people, it offers nothing as an alternative approach to transitioning. I'll accept that I was a man with autogynephia if you accept that transitioning was my successful cure.

joanna Santos said...

Janet,

Thank you for that comment! I have had much the same experience as you in that as the sexual part wanes as I age the feeling of wanting to be a woman remains and in fact actually strengthens. People like you are proof that the eroticism you experience is not the driver here but actually just a side effect of your desire to be a female.

ponies ohyeah said...

Ugh...Why do you guys use the word autogynephilia so damn much...Just urg...Half of these accounts are just clear cut transsexuality...Like what does wanting to be a mother and nurture a baby have ANYTHING to do with autogynephilia, WHATSOEVER. Honey, if you are an autogynephile and you take HRT and you still feel like a woman, you are a transsexual woman. You don't have to label yourself as anything else. You can even just label yourself as a woman, period. It is natural and healthy for BORN WOMEN to fantasize about their bodies in a sexual manner. Technically they are autogynephiles, too. But it wouldn't make sense for us to call them that. You put a special stigma on transsexual mtfs when you use special terminology with them implying they are somewhat seperate from women. And for those people experiencing distress from "autogynephilia", likely it is due to percieved social isolation or simply a form of gender identity dysphoria. The ancient greek origin of autogynephilia means "love of ones female body" but when you use it in this context it opens a whole 'nother bag of worms with the Ray Blanchard controversy so I think you should avoid this term when possible, especially in a public forum, unless you are around a friend who takes what you mean as the classic Greek definition.

ponies ohyeah said...
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ponies ohyeah said...
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ponies ohyeah said...

also my autoerotic fixation is independent of my transsexual status even when im not horny i feel like a woman, and i enjoy every minute of it
ive been on HRT for a year and i still have a sex drive but i have female secondary secondary sex characteristics and a female mind

ponies ohyeah said...
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ponies ohyeah said...

Quote Anonymous Said To Me "We do not know surely if autogynephiliac did exist in ancient times, I rather think of not. SNIP"

I believe your argument is false. Reason being is, I fantasized myself as a lesbian before I ever watched porn, I didn't even know what an actual vagina looked like, I just thought it was 3 holes. I was also socially active, mentally active and did a lot of excersize and sunlight, and I was very young, which pretty much disproves your argument. transsexuals have been around since the dawn of time, research 2 spirits and hyenas

ponies ohyeah said...

Someone Said To Me "when a woman dons a pair of trousers, it is for reasons of practicality, comfort,r even a fashion statement.

When a man "presents" as a woman, (wigs, heels, makeup), that is not the same as a man in a kilt."
Some crossdressers do do it to pass a woman, however, many gender queers wear womens clothing simply to make a fashion statement and because they like the style.

"Similarly, 'autogynophiiac' is just a fancy Latin word for a man who is in love with the image of himself as a woman."
No, it is a greek term, and it can mean either a MALE or a FEMALE in love with a real or imagined female body

Honestly, I love autoeroticsm it's so much fun i think we are lucky to have it, its really something to be cherished and thankful for

Jack Molay said...

@ponies

This blog post was written in 2009, where I was in the early stages of writing about what I know call crossdreaming.

And I coined that term for the exact same reasons as you list: autogynephilia is stigmatizing and pathologises transsexual women.

If you look at my recent posts, I think arousal from feeling sexy is something found among XX women, gay men and all variants of trans. It is natural.

"Honey, if you are an autogynephile and you take HRT and you still feel like a woman, you are a transsexual woman. You don't have to label yourself as anything else. "

Exactly. But the rest of us need a language to come to terms with our feelings, to understand them and to handle them. Too many of us spend too much time suppressing and denying them.



ponies ohyeah said...

Lol, crossdreaming is a bad term as well, since crossdreaming does not imply anything sexual.

Why not just call it what it is, cross-sex autoeroticsm?

Jack Molay said...

@ponies

"Why not just call it what it is, cross-sex autoeroticsm?"

Because it isn't. It is one of many expressions of some kind of underlying sex and gender variance.

The fact that trans women, who normally identify with much, much, much more than female sexuality when dysphoric, proves that this is the case.

As you said some comments ago: "..Like what does wanting to be a mother and nurture a baby have ANYTHING to do with autogynephilia," Indeed!

But trans women who dream about being mothers will also crossdream, at least before transitioning (as you yourself has noted). In other words: crossdreaming can be much more than cross-sex autoeroticism.