April 1, 2013

The love life of non-transsexual crossdreamers -- getting real

More and more crossdreamers are able to establish loving relationships with partners who accept their other side. Are we facing some kind of positive cultural shift?

I see from some of the emails I get, that some of my readers believe that I believe that all crossdreamers are transsexual. This is probably because I do write a lot about transsexual crossdreamers on this blog.
MTF crossdresser, photo: Olga Ekaterincheva

There are good reasons for this. 

Firstly, transsexual crossdreamers face challenges that deserves our attention, for their own sake. 

Secondly, I do not believe there is a clear cut divide between transsexual and non-transsexual crossdreamers. Non-transsexual crossdreamers can therefore learn something about themselves by listening to those that suffer from "gender dysphoria" or "gender incongruence," i.e. a complete mismatch between their inner sex identity and their bodies.

Most crossdreamers are not transsexual

That being said, it seems to me that many crossdreamers are not gender dysphoric. They are transgender (in the sense of belonging to a wide group of people challenging gender stereotypes), but not transsexual (in the sense of feeling that they are of the "opposite" sex).

Sure, quite a few of them may be deceiving themselves, using every trick in Psychiatry 101 to suppress their true identity. Still, it is also clear that many, if not most, crossdreamers are not gender dysphoric. This applies to both men and women.

Expressing the other side

These crossdreamers face different challenges than the transsexual ones. They need to find a way of including and expressing their crossdreams, while still identifying with their birth sex.

A male bodied crossdreamer who get aroused by the idea of being a woman, while still thinking of himself as a man, needs to find a way to express the other, feminine, side of his being.


This has been a huge problem for both male and female crossdreamers, simply because  the surrounding culture and the medical establishment have insisted that the fantasy of having the body of the opposite sex -- or having sex as the opposite sex-- is wrong and some kind of perversion or paraphilia.

Misogynistic repression

This especially applies to male to female crossdreamers, as there is a deep undercurrent in many cultures that being woman is "less" than being male, and therefore something negative.

Indeed, this bias against women is apparent in psychiatry as well. Until recently most of the so-called "experts" would deny the existence of female to male crossdreamers, partly because they mistakenly believed only men have the kind of sex drive needed to develop such fantasies, and partly because wanting to be a man is a good thing, while wanting to be a woman isn't.

This socio-cultural bias against gender challenging dreams and desires has made it impossible for most crossdreamers to include crossdreaming in the love lives they share with others, because they had reason to believe they would risk losing everything if they revealed their inner dreams to their partner.

Many crossdreamers have therefore chosen to keep their fantasies in the closet, some to the extent that they have stayed alone. And it is this tendency to keep to themselves that has led researchers like Ray Blanchard and others to conclude that crossdreamers are autoerotic narcissists in love with themselves (autogynephilia).

In other words: Stigmatization leads to isolation, and this isolation seems to confirm the prejudices that led them into the closet in the first place. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't!

Cause for optimism

I must admit that I have been rather pessimistic as regards the possibility of crossdreamers being able to include their crossdreams in a stable relationship.

Recently, however, I have read and heard a lot that seems to indicate that I have been far too pessimistic. It is possible for both male to female and female to male crossdreamers to find partners  willing to give room to their "other side".

This is not a kind of tolerance or understanding you will find everywhere, and especially not in very conservative or fundamentalist societies (whether these are countries like Afganistan or subcultures like Christian fundamentalists in the US). Still, it is becoming more common in broad circles in some Western countries. 

The fact that a majority of people in countries like Norway, Sweden and the US supports gay marriage, demonstrates that deeply held prejudices may be overwon. 

Moreover, the fact that the bestselling novel among women last year was a book about sado-masochistic sex, also tells me that we are finally overcoming the widely held belief that women are  less "kinky" and sexually oriented than men. It seems modern women refuse to be reduced to a madonna or a whore.

I am not saying that crossdreamers and crossdressers can expect the same kind of respect as homosexuals or women enjoying a bit of spanking -- at least not yet -- but these trends show me that people are getting increasingly more open to the idea that human sexuality is diverse and should be diverse. The new tolerance says that people should be able to please each other in the ways they like, as long as no one gets hurt.

Sex with a crossdreamer

Here is a quote from a discussion over at reddit that can serve as a good illustration of this. "throwawaynutella" writes:

"My boyfriend told me a little while ago that he likes crossdressing (in a sexual setting only) and I was super excited to explore it with him! We trade panties all the time and I peg him occasionally. The thing is, lately he's been taking it farther and I don't know how I feel about it. He's been talking about role switching, him acting like a girl during sex and wearing a wig or fake breasts. This hasn't happened, and I don't know if I want it to. He also wants to get a corset for himself (...)

I really do enjoy pegging him and trading panties, but I don't know if I want my boyfriend to act like a woman during sex. Help me please, I don't know what to do."


Yes, this is a 19 year old woman who thinks her boy friend's crossdreaming is going a bit too far and who tries to put up some kind of boundaries. That is very reasonable, if you ask me. 

What makes me interpret this as an amazingly positive statement, however, is the fact that she have no qualms about accommodating some of the wishes of her lover, and even find this exciting.

The discussion following this question is even more revealing. One commenter after the other give practical advice about what they can do and where to draw the line, all mixed in with humor. Most commenters find pegging (anal sex with strap on) OK, but agree that "throwawaynutella" has the right to say no to anything she is uncomfortable with.

It is the common sense approach to it all that gives me hope.

Girlfag liberation in Iran

Note also an exchange taking place on this blog:

"God I'm finally writing this! I'm a ftm [female to male] crossdreamer, 22, from Iran and it sucks! here, I have no chance to express myself and really don't know what to do. I can cross-dress just at home! so I spend all day confused, lost and invisible. 

I read these posts and reverse them to ftm and they really make sense. I was always a normal girl with some weird dreams! I can continue being a girl if they let me to throw away almost all the signs of femininity! Here in Iran transgenders are allowed to fully transition if they completely feel like the other sex and homosexuality is illegal!!! So I try to continue, repeating day and night to myself that I'm a girl and end up watching gay movies or porn and dreaming of turning to a boy someday! 

The man inside me has grown up more and more and wants to come out, he's driving me crazy. I tried to forget about him but...he has made strong muscles I guess! I found a gay boyfriend in internet. exactly my style: submissive, younger, feminine. He assumes me a transgender who needs to transition. I told him that I'm not sure cuz I feel the both genders in me but he says I must accept that I'm a guy. Well it really makes me happy but is that the truth???"

You may not think there is much hope to find in a comment like this one, and -- indeed -- Rayka is facing some huge challenges. 

Still, one response to Rayka's prayer shows me that there is at least room for self acceptance, even when living in a country like Iran. And self acceptance is a huge step forward compared to living in fear and shame, and believing you are the only one on the planet who feels this way.

The fact that Rayka has become part of a global community of crossdreamers is also important. It may be hard for her to use this community to find love in Iran, but has, at least, become a little bit less impossible than it was before.

Be yourself!

Ariadna Azul wrote the following response to Rayka:

"Hi, I am fellow girlfag [female to male crossdreamer] from Peru. I guess being one of us in a country like yours must be hard. My heart is with you! Things in my country never were fair for women either. We are still 2nd class citizens here. Sons are still more welcome/loved than daughters. It is still expected that you are submissive and house chores are thought to be your responsibility just for the fact you are a woman. You have to 'man up' if you want respect from men and not even then. This is the story of my life. Sometimes the desperation can make you take paths that don't suit you, like transitioning or going for a lesbian relationship. 

In my case, I sometimes crossdressed in public to show my disgust for the macho culture that is dominant here. I denied my feminity and i engaged in lesbian relationships trying to find release. It was a hard path but then when you find out who you really are, things are easier. 

Don't deny anything that comes natural to you. Your sexuality, your masculinity and your feminity too. You'll feel at peace with yourself and you'll get to find a balance in your life. Transition ONLY if this is what YOU want, don't let other people decide for you, nobody knows you better than yourself. If you don't feel at ease with the idea, then don't even consider it. People tend to think things in black or white. We are the living proof that nature doesn't. 

Being accepting with my self, with feminity and masculinity as well has helped me a lot to achieve my own identity. Don't change what you are just because you want to fit. If this gay guy can't see it, then he is not worth your time. 

I have met wonderful people in this blog/forum (crossdreamers-crossdreaminglife). MTF crossdreamers are the only kind of guys that i have felt in tune with. I am able to fully understand their struggles and viceversa. It is pure understanding regarding sexuality. In fact, it is very satisfying and exciting (MTF crossdreamers are damn sexy). Finding the best match for you goes beyond sexuality although, (there are many factors, compatibility among them) but as long as you don't need to hide who you truly are, things are way easier. Being honest is the best start for any relationship. I really don't know how easy is for you to express yourself in your society, but i'd personally leave for a country that guarantee my freedom of expression. 

Repression is something really painful. In my case, it led me to think I had an authentic man inside me that was taking over and over. Once i found ways to express my true self, i stared being more accepting with every single side of me, even my feminity (I know, as FTM crossdreamers we tend to deny our feminity in order to benefit our masculine side but this proved to be painful for me too). In yaoi communities you'll find girls like you and me, that share the same dreams and fantasies. Contact me whenever you want!"

77 comments:

Sam Z said...

Hey Jack,

It was nice of you to write about this because i too thought you only believed crossdreaming to be something transsexuals and / or dysphorics do. That's why i have left these crossdreaming-forums for dysphorics. So than you for aknowledging us!

It is actually pretty common, but clearly not the norm, to fantisize sexually about being the opposite sex and if you look through the net, you find many others like me.

I don't know if i call myself really transgender since i don't identify with opposite sex almost at all exept when it comes to sexual encounters and being the woman of my sexual fantasies in those. I have still been struggling with this and might suppress this to some extent but I think when i'll get used to this, i will truely enjoy these fantasies more.

I belong to those who also is half-straight (having sex with women as a man), but i believe this AG / Bi-side of me is less taboo and therefore kindof stronger / more exciting.

Anonymous said...

AGP is inherently something of sexual arousal. There can either be autogynephiliacs or dysphoric-autogynephiliacs. Yet dysphoria isn't necessarily as clean cut as it may seem on the surface, as routinely indistinguishable from the general longings of sexual fulfilment, and even further investments based in such conditions.

The phenomenologies of AGP fantasies and the wider psychology and psychological construction are of great (if not of central) importance in the question of dysphoria.

How is being aroused by such a thing, an "expression" of something? How is it not being aroused by such because it is simply sexually arousing? In other words, anything other than a general sexual appetite?

"That being said, it seems to me that many crossdreamers are not gender dysphoric. They are transgender"

What one is sexually aroused by does not necessarily have bearing on how one self-identifies. Does a furry identify as transspecie?

"Sure, quite a few of them may be deceiving themselves, using every trick in Psychiatry 101 to suppress their true identity."

Or the compartmentalization of sexuality from dysphoric longings.

"A male bodied crossdreamer who get aroused by the idea of being a woman"

"This socio-cultural bias against gender challenging dreams"

Sexual arousal by being related to femininity, does not equate to "being a woman". If I fantasize about being humiliated by the association to femininity, then femininity is in the condition of masochism and nothing manifestly more.

"This has been a huge problem for both male and female crossdreamers, simply because the surrounding culture and the medical establishment have insisted that the fantasy of having the body of the opposite sex -- or having sex as the opposite sex-- is wrong and some kind of perversion or paraphilia."

Nobody here really believes it is a perversion of paraphilia, simply sexual arousal by something "unusual".

Jack Molay said...

@Sam Z

For me sexual fantasies are just one of many ways of being transgender (which does not -- as you correctly point out --- always equal being transsexual).

Identifying partly or fully with the opposite sex cannot be reduced to stereotpic interests.

After all, there are a lot of non-transgender women who fully identify as women, but who share none of the typical "feminine" interests, being that knitting, child care or celebrity gossip. They are still women.

Indeed, the new generation of transactivist women seem to reject the idea that sharing feminine interests is a sign of womanhood. Julia Serano's book The Whipping Girl explains this in a good way.

So I guess what I am saying here is that for a man to get sexually aroused by the idea of being a woman is as transgender as a fantasy of -- let's say -- girly pyjamas parties, pregnancy, being the queen of the ball, or whatever it is transgender associate with being the opposite sex.

Having such fantasies -- erotic or non-erotic -- does not mean that you cannot have a masculine core personality. You clearly do.

Sam Z said...

Hey Jack,

Thanks for your response.
Well yeah, let's call it a transgender-fantasy at least without getting sucked too much into labels.

As regarding my love life... i've always fallen in love with girls and have had enjoyable sex with them as a man. It might or might not be that i'm having a bit hard time ejaculating because my heterosexuality isn't as strong as a typical mans - mostly i do finish.
Then again AG isn't generally the only problem why many men generally might not be able to finish. This is where i believe sometimes shyness, performance anxiety etc might be responsible at times.

I don't see the need or will to really have sex as "the woman" in bed but yes, it sometimes crosses my mind.

Jack Molay said...

@Anonymous

"Sexual arousal by being related to femininity, does not equate to 'being a woman'. If I fantasize about being humiliated by the association to femininity, then femininity is in the condition of masochism and nothing manifestly more. "

This is the point where you go wrong. You project your own life experience upon all crossdreamers, transsexuals included.

Since crossdreaming is only sexual for you, it has to be so for everyone. You even associate the dream of being a woman with submission and masochism.

If you study TG fiction fantasies, you will see that humiliating feminization fantasies are just one of many types of "crossdreams".

Others tell the story of men becoming strong and powerful women. Moreover, the majority of stories on, for instance, Fictionmania are not sexual in nature at all.

Others (including myself) report that their fantasies (and fictional stories) change over time. Submission fantasies may be replaced by more realistic renderings of what it means to be the opposite sex. For others the sexual arousal part all but disappears.

Among FTM crossdreamers you will also find a wide variety of sexual fantasies, domination of feminine men being only one of them.

All of this tells me that neither crossdreaming nor transsexualism can be reduced to a sexual fetish only.

"Nobody here really believes it is a perversion of paraphilia, simply sexual arousal by something 'unusual'."

"Autogynephilia" is included in the US manual of mental diseases as a paraphilia. So, yes, many "experts" do consider this a perversion.

I have lost count of the number of crossdreamers who tell me they think they are perverts, or has believed so in the past.

By calling your condition "autogynephilia" you strengthen the idea that this is a sort of autoerotic narcissism, reducing the lives of crossdreamers to a pseudo-Freudian cliché. Please stop doing that!

joanna Santos said...

As usual a spot on article with very well thought out analysis. However I don't share your optimism Jack. The problem lies in the crossdreamer like myself who has already crossed the tolerable boundary. The example you illustrate with the panty trading couple is one thing but an almost transexual such as myself is really on thin ice with trying to find a partner who can tolerate or dare I say celebrate this difference.

If you have read my blog I have essentially given up because the effort would sap my life energy and more than likely lead to frustration.

Thank you for this article

Be well,
Joanna

Anonymous said...

"This is the point where you go wrong. You project your own life experience upon all crossdreamers, transsexuals included."

Are you implying that you are not projecting your own life experience? How about addressing the actual phenomenology of the sexual experience, the anxiety of being associated to femininity.

"Since crossdreaming is only sexual for you, it has to be so for everyone."

I wish to avoid the conflation between the singular sexual experience and related superfluous psychologies among a minority.

"You even associate the dream of being a woman with submission and masochism. If you study TG fiction fantasies, you will see that humiliating feminization fantasies are just one of many types"

I contest that the sexual experience is inherently masochistic. That anxiety is manifestly determinant, and "humiliation" scenarios are simply scenarios where the anxiety is displayed in a recognisable manner.

Not a dream of "being a woman", that is phenomenologically crude. If you study feminization fantasies, you will see that the cues of sexual stimulation function as the masochistic subjection to symbols of femininity(emasculation).

"All of this tells me that neither crossdreaming nor transsexualism can be reduced to a sexual fetish only."

Ofcourse feminization fetishism is a fetish like any other. Transgender identification can be historically rooted in any kind of psychology, in an abstract experience, "female socialization", or even in what one is sexually aroused by.

"Autogynephilia is included in the US manual of mental diseases as a paraphilia. So, yes, many "experts" do consider this a perversion."

From wiki,

"Blanchard supports public funding of sex reassignment surgery as an appropriate treatment for transsexual people, as he believes the available evidence supports that the surgery helps them live more comfortably and happily, with high satisfaction rates."

"We tried to go as far as we could in depathologizing mild and harmless paraphilias, while recognizing that severe paraphilias that distress or impair people or cause them to do harm to others are validly regarded as disorders."

"By calling your condition "autogynephilia" you strengthen the idea that this is a sort of autoerotic narcissism, reducing the lives of crossdreamers to a pseudo-Freudian cliché. Please stop doing that!"

The term "crossdreaming" is not useful as a term here either differentiates the sexual experience or it is superfluous and obscures. "Crossdreaming" presupposes an inherent dysphoric antagonism and omits simple fetishism. It manipulatively propagates a narrative of transsexual psychosexual expression, otherwise repressed transsexual.

Whatever representative term, it is correct to acknowledge the solely inherent sexual experience, without necessarily demeaning and constraining related adjunct psychologies.

Mahopatra said...



Hi Jack,
I came across this wonderful blog that explains what you have mentioned.

http://www.bilerico.com/2013/03/the_emergence_and_danger_of_the_acceptable_trans_n.php

Lindsay said...

Anonymouse said...

"you will see that the cues of sexual stimulation function as the masochistic subjection to symbols of femininity(emasculation)"

I'm really repulsed by this statement. You're equating femininity with emasculation???? I hope not. I think that you may have an emasculation fetish. Please don't try to associate it with femininity. This statement makes it clearer what angle you're trying to play, and I don't think it has anything to do with crossdreaming.

Anonymous said...

"You're equating femininity with emasculation????"

Are these or are these not the content of autogynephiliacs? What is the phenomenology?

http://sissysocial.net/all-video/mediaitem/102-sissy-couture-addiction-stx
http://www.petticoatpunishmentart.com/docs/cjart051.html
http://feminizationstation.blogspot.co.uk http://sissifyourself.blogspot.co.uk http://sissycockmilker.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/prissy-sissy-faggots.html
http://www.youwilldress.com/
http://sissyfemminuccia.tumblr.com/
http://www.imagefap.com/profile/racheldestiny86
http://www.rebeccamolay.com/2008/01/sissy-sites-tg-blogs-etc.html

joanna Santos said...

I don't for a minute think that I am a paraphilic eroticist. Speaking for myself I am more of a repressed transexual but attracted to women (what Blanchard would call an autogynephilic transexual).

Part of the problem here lies in the fact that there are two distinct groups represented here namely: true fetishists and people who actually identify as transgender.

Both can have erotic experiences surrounding their desire for feminization but for the former group its only a kick.

Even androphilic transexuals have feminization fantasies (as reported in their testimonials on Anne Lawrence's website).

So there really should be no argument.

Jack Molay said...

@anonymous

Listing up a large number of sissy sites may be interesting, but does not in any way prove your point.

Sissyfication is just one of many subgenres under TG fiction. Most TG blogs are not sissy blogs.

Check the preferences of cappers over at Rachel's Haven and you will see how diverse their interests are.

Given the stigma attached to being transgender - especially for male bodied persons - humiliation fantasies are the psyche's way of handling the impossible:

'Everybody says boys who feel like girls are despicable sissies. The only way of being who I truly am is therefore to be a sissy - in my mind or in real life.'

For some the only way of having real or fantasy sex as a woman if you are not gay is sissyfication.

Moreover, forced feminization fantasies have the added bonus that they relieve you of guilt: 'I didn't do it. They did this to me.'

It is the cultural toxiticity of these fantasies that convinced me that these fantasies cannot be explained as caused by themselves.

An extremely strong force is needed to produce such a taboo-breaking phenomenon, and the most obvious explanation is the suppression of some kind of subconscious alternative sex identity, or part of such an identity.

If the taboo diasappears the feminization fantasies go away.

The psyche is not binary. You do not need to be transsexual to have such a drive. Some type of a female sex drive is enough.

Jack Molay said...

@mahopatra

Thank for the link. I have tweeted the article. Essential reading!

@johanna

Yes, as soon as you transition you are facing a different set of problems. It probably takes a rare mix of age, skills and luck to pull that one off.

That being said, transactivists like Julia Serano argue strongly that a post-op love and sex life is possible, even when you renounce the stereotypes of the classic transsexual.

As for there being two types of crossdreamers: true trans and fetishists: I find it hard to uphold this divide.

All human beings have fetishes shaped by their culture and life history. That transsexual as well as non-transsexual crossdreamers have similar fetishes is to be expected.

Lindsay said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lindsay said...

Hi Jack,

"All human beings have fetishes shaped by their culture and life history. That transsexual as well as non-transsexual crossdreamers have similar fetishes is to be expected."

I know that we'd love to have crossdreaming be an all inclusive group. But I don't think that a heterosexual male with an emasculation fetish is a crossdreamer. AGP was a misguided attempt to explain gynophilic MTF's. Let's leave it at that and move on.

Lindsay

Anonymous said...

"Part of the problem here lies in the fact that there are two distinct groups represented here namely: true fetishists and people who actually identify as transgender."

Yes, whilst AGP is inherently a sexual experience, transgenderism is adjunct in relation to it.

"humiliation fantasies are the psyche's way of handling the impossible:"

The fantasies are manifestly determined by anxiety, where "humiliation" scenarios are simply scenarios where the anxiety is displayed in a recognisable manner. Nothing is presented beyond this, not an alleviation of guilt, not a way of "handling the impossible", simply anxiety itself.

"Some type of a female sex drive is enough."

Nothing of the sort is necessary, simply the same anxieties which constitute general masochistic fetishes such as

http://cuckoldsessionsblog.com/

joannaS said...

But why can't some crossdreamers simply be in it for the sheer sexual pleasure of it? in these cases there need not be any deeper trans identification. It might just be fun to role play and dress up. I know for me it was the other way around in that I fought hard against it but the pressure of my GID was too much.

So if there is no disphoria present its just a sexual preference.

There must be quite a mumber of people who fit this category...

Lindsay said...

"But why can't some crossdreamers simply be in it for the sheer sexual pleasure of it?

...

So if there is no disphoria present its just a sexual preference."

I don't have any issues with this. But I think that some people have mistaken their emasculation fetish with crossdreaming. And I wouldn't really have an issue with this if they weren't always trying to force their belief on everyone else. My opinion is that crossdreaming has nothing to do with emasculation. Emasculation has everything to do with humiliation and I don't see that in crossdreaming at all.

Lindsay

joanna Santos said...

I dont have a problem with what you are saying either Lindsay.

In any event I find this whole process of discovery incredibly confusing. Its like a chicken and the egg question where you wonder is the AGP making me think I'm trans or is it my being trans giving me AGP.

My personal experience tells me that I was trans first and then experienced what we now term AGP.

In any event AGP seems to be a common thread among both types of transexuals as well as non transexuals.

What I think is that people who are not in any way trans are not really suffering from AGP at all they are simply enjoying an aspect of their sexuality without deeper significance or connection to any innate femininity..

I am stating an opinion here of course...

Sam Z said...

Actually, cismen (AG) and ciswomen (AA) can experience these fantasies without any innate feminity, like myself. That is another thing dysphorics propably have a hard time understanding how it is possible. I don't have a female identity inside and don't generally feel feminine more than any other man. I just find the thought arousing of giving head as a sub-woman but i see it more of an extension to my slight bisexuality.

Anonymous said...

"I think that some people have mistaken their emasculation fetish with crossdreaming."

It is more of a question of whether there are any autogynephiliacs who do not enjoy such fantasies. Consistently it is the very same persons who admit to such fantasies when rationalized in terms of a psychosexual expression of transsexuality, or the like.

"I wouldn't really have an issue with this if they weren't always trying to force their belief on everyone else."

Forcing beliefs upon others? You mean when a theory is being propagated and people think otherwise?

Lindsay said...

Anonymous,

To me, the definition of crossdreaming is having the same sexual fantasies that ciswomen have. Most women are AGP by definition.

Your list of fantasy sites mostly deal with degradation and humiliation. The best way to get revenge on a superior male is to force him to be an inferior female. One or two of the sites do offer more balanced stories, but the jist of your line of reasoning is always emasculation and degradation. I personally I'm turned off by this.

You are not a crossdreamer. Take your emasculation fetishes and hang out at the sites that support them. Quit trying to convince the people here that we are just like you.

Lindsay

joanna Santos said...

I am equally repulsed by emasculation. I just enjoy being a normal woman and express my femininity but then I am trans. Yes there is an erotic aspect sometimes but even ciswomen are turned on by their way of dressing or expressing their femininity.

I dont read tg fiction or go to sissification sites either for the record

Anonymous said...

"Your list of fantasy sites mostly deal with degradation and humiliation."

You would find that such fantasies as all but universal among autogynephiliacs, whether they are referred to as "forced feminization" or the like on fictionmania, in captions and so on. Again, it is the very same people who admit to enjoying such fantasies when the fantasies are interpreted in terms which better suit themselves.

http://bubblepopmei.blogspot.co.uk/
http://www.imagefap.com/profile/racheldestiny86

"To me, the definition of crossdreaming is having the same sexual fantasies that ciswomen have. Most women are AGP by definition."

Many women will state they enjoy "being sexy", but this is not the same thing as sexual arousal by the anxiety of the very thought of being thought of as feminine. Whether you like it or not, and however subtle or explicit, an inherent masochism has to be confronted.

http://www.imagefap.com/pictures/3094646/Sissy-Princess-Pink-07
http://www.imagefap.com/profile/FetishwhoreJessie http://www.imagefap.com/profile/pink_leona http://www.imagefap.com/profile/germansissy http://www.imagefap.com/profile/CumSissyBunny http://www.imagefap.com/profile/sluttyskoolgirluk http://www.imagefap.com/profile/sissybimbo-master http://www.imagefap.com/profile/sostwomillion http://www.imagefap.com/profile/sissylisa69

joanna Santos said...

"You will find that such fantasies as all but universal among autogynephiliacs..."

I disagree with this statement categorically as I am not interested in sissification, tg fiction or humiliation. In fact transexuals who according to blanchard and lawrence are supposed to be AGP don't share in these fantasies either.

Speaking for myself as a trans person who supposedly suffers from AGP, the only eroticism element in my cross gender behavior is simply related to my everyday feminine activity which consists of doing things as a woman instead of a man.

According to your definition I don't have AGP....

joanna Santos said...

I also have very weak libido so don't agree with the sexual motivation argument. I'm probably inthe wrong forum as I am more of a repressed transexual than anything else...

Sam Z said...

Lets just agree to disagree on this subject.

Lately, though, i have come to understand that the term "aroued by the thought of being a woman" is pretty universal.

I mean for a transperson like Joanna, its simply experiencing arousal as a person who she really is. To me, it is not the identification with the woman, it is just the thought of being a sub in straight action instead of homosexual porn. I don't get aroused thinking about having a pussy or breasts, it's just me being beautiful and submissive.

joanna Santos said...

Sam I'm with you on this....

Anonymous said...

"In any event AGP seems to be a common thread among both types of transexuals as well as non transexuals"

I could agree with this statement except for the incorrect terminology. What you are referring to are transgenders and non-transgendered fetishists.

BTW the correct spelling is transsexual...(two S's).

r2d2

Anonymous said...

"I disagree with this statement categorically as I am not interested in sissification, tg fiction or humiliation. In fact transexuals who according to blanchard and lawrence are supposed to be AGP don't share in these fantasies either."

Even among Blanchard and Lawrences documented autogynephiles,

"I started coming out at age 19, transitioned at 22, and had SRS at 24. Currently I'm 28 years old. My autogynephilic fantasies probably kicked in with puberty. In the early days, I think they were more clothes/forced-femme based stuff, later on they were more based on the idea of a change of genitals."

"I am a 42 year old Male-to-Female pre-operative TS. I have been living full time as female for over a year, have completed a legal name change, and have been on HRT for several years. My childhood seemed rather typically male from an outside viewpoint and I lived as a fairly successful man for most of my 39 years prior to seeking professional help with the aim of eventual SRS in mind. My sexual fantasies all include myself in female form, either being forced to become female or voluntarily. Frequently they involve a submissive element on my part -- I am either forced to be a woman or forced to behave in a particularly submissive manner. If there was a male involved it was usually a vague or faceless man with extremely strong and powerful physique. From my very earliest masturbatory experiences I have exclusively used this type of "becoming female" fantasy for arousal."

"I knew I was TS at nine years old. I also knew I was a lesbian trapped in a male body by the time I was 13. The central themes of my erotic fantasies were my becoming female and having sex with women as a woman. Not forced, but by desire and choice. My then cross-dressing somehow got mixed up with that and when I read all the stuff about cross-dressing, I knew the psychiatric community would view me as a transvestite. So, I suppressed that information. I am six months post-op now, and at 46 years old, still get sexually aroused when I think of the entire transformation that I just completed."

"I also believe that the "forced feminization" scenario is particularly stimulating to a lot of [us transsexual] women because it relieves us of the guilt of wanting to be feminine. Someone else is forcing us, and we have no choice in the matter. No guilt, all fun, and you are experiencing life in the body you desire to be in and be with."

including (again),
http://bubblepopmei.blogspot.co.uk/
http://www.imagefap.com/profile/racheldestiny86

This coincides with the near universal presence of online autogynephiles who display an enjoyment to a degree of masochism, whether subtle, or explicit, largely depending depending on the individuals own set of fantasy niches at the time.

It still does seem to be the case that masochism is inherent, and that the niche of fantasies will determine how the anxiety will be presented, whether explicitely recognisable in the form of scenarios of humiliation, or more obscured.

"Lately, though, i have come to understand that the term "aroued by the thought of being a woman" is pretty universal."

In analysis of the experience of "being a woman", the experience comes down to how "being a woman" is opposed to "being a man", which comes down to symbolisms of what is perceived to be masculine and feminine.

It never has been about "being a woman" per se, that has always been a crude yet understandable representation. Rather it has always been the very thought of relating oneself through femininity, which symbolically differs a great deal.

Anonymous said...

"I disagree with this statement categorically as I am not interested in sissification, tg fiction or humiliation. In fact transexuals who according to blanchard and lawrence are supposed to be AGP don't share in these fantasies either."

Even among Blanchard and Lawrences documented autogynephiles,

"I started coming out at age 19, transitioned at 22, and had SRS at 24. Currently I'm 28 years old. My autogynephilic fantasies probably kicked in with puberty. In the early days, I think they were more clothes/forced-femme based stuff, later on they were more based on the idea of a change of genitals."

"I am a 42 year old Male-to-Female pre-operative TS. I have been living full time as female for over a year, have completed a legal name change, and have been on HRT for several years. My childhood seemed rather typically male from an outside viewpoint and I lived as a fairly successful man for most of my 39 years prior to seeking professional help with the aim of eventual SRS in mind. My sexual fantasies all include myself in female form, either being forced to become female or voluntarily. Frequently they involve a submissive element on my part -- I am either forced to be a woman or forced to behave in a particularly submissive manner. If there was a male involved it was usually a vague or faceless man with extremely strong and powerful physique. From my very earliest masturbatory experiences I have exclusively used this type of "becoming female" fantasy for arousal."

"I knew I was TS at nine years old. I also knew I was a lesbian trapped in a male body by the time I was 13. The central themes of my erotic fantasies were my becoming female and having sex with women as a woman. Not forced, but by desire and choice. My then cross-dressing somehow got mixed up with that and when I read all the stuff about cross-dressing, I knew the psychiatric community would view me as a transvestite. So, I suppressed that information. I am six months post-op now, and at 46 years old, still get sexually aroused when I think of the entire transformation that I just completed."

"I also believe that the "forced feminization" scenario is particularly stimulating to a lot of [us transsexual] women because it relieves us of the guilt of wanting to be feminine. Someone else is forcing us, and we have no choice in the matter. No guilt, all fun, and you are experiencing life in the body you desire to be in and be with."

including (again),
http://bubblepopmei.blogspot.co.uk/
http://www.imagefap.com/profile/racheldestiny86

This coincides with the near universal presence of online autogynephiles who display an enjoyment to a degree of masochism, whether subtle, or explicit, largely depending depending on the individuals own set of fantasy niches at the time.

It still does seem to be the case that masochism is inherent, and that the niche of fantasies will determine how the anxiety will be presented, whether explicitely recognisable in the form of scenarios of humiliation, or more obscured.

"Lately, though, i have come to understand that the term "aroued by the thought of being a woman" is pretty universal."

In analysis of the experience of "being a woman", the experience comes down to how "being a woman" is opposed to "being a man", which comes down to symbolisms of what is perceived to be masculine and feminine.

It never has been about "being a woman" per se, that has always been a crude yet understandable representation. Rather it has always been the very thought of relating oneself through femininity, which symbolically differs a great deal.

Rayka said...

oh I was surprised to see my name in ur post Jack :) yes I'm not a transsexual but for me this whole thing is not just sexual, its not that i just get turned on by imagining myself with a penis! I am masculine and so androgynous. I love guys clothes and I hate my breasts. I wish I have been born male and I could have a relationship with a boy as a boy. a ftm transsexual knows that he is male but i am just a not-complete female! I don't know what should i call it but I struggle with it all the time...

joanna Santos said...

Anonymous the statements you point to are not about humiliation or sissification fantasies. You will notice the language is pretty tame. No one is denying the eroticism that is present among transsexuals (two s' s!). I experience it myself.

But I do take exception to the statement that was made about all AGPers being into humiliation fantasies. I certainly do not and I consider myself transgender.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous..."It never has been about "being a woman" per se, that has always been a crude yet understandable representation. Rather it has always been the very thought of relating oneself through femininity, which symbolically differs a great deal."

This may describe your scene. Stop imposing it on others.

Joanna. You self describe as transgender, not transsexual. Stop with the mix and match.
Apples and oranges.

r2d2

Lindsay said...

Anonymous said:

"This coincides with the near universal presence of online autogynephiles who display an enjoyment to a degree of masochism, whether subtle, or explicit, largely depending depending on the individuals own set of fantasy niches at the time.

It still does seem to be the case that masochism is inherent, and that the niche of fantasies will determine how the anxiety will be presented, whether explicitely recognisable in the form of scenarios of humiliation, or more obscured."

I wish I could come up with a nicer term but, what a load of crap. This is obviously based on your own opinion, many argue against you (try Julia Sereno). So you're saying all crossdreamers are masochists? They are all into humiliation? You're basing this off of Lawrence and Blanchard who are discredited more and more? It looks like you're making the same arguments that were used against homosexuals in the past. Say we're all a bunch of perverts and send us out for psychiatric evaluation.

I am nothing like what you describe. I have nothing against most fetishes, most people have them. But I have a real problem with people who try to stereotype a group.

Anonymous said...

"Anonymous the statements you point to are not about humiliation or sissification fantasies."

Regarding masochism, the key word in the statements which is often used in the community is "forced". The internet is littered with evidence of such content and of those who enjoy such, including many transitioners and self-identified dysphoric persons. Again (and even among the statements) is an acknowledgement of masochism, but rationalized in other terms.

Analysis of fantasies is something that should be done.

"This may describe your scene. Stop imposing it on others."

Would I be "imposing on others" if I proposed that autogynephilia is a psychosexual expression of repressed transsexualism? Imposing? When it suits yourself.

"I wish I could come up with a nicer term but, what a load of crap."

You seem to disagree, but you do not address the presence of masochism.

"many argue against you (try Julia Sereno)."

Interesting. Hopefully it can be constructive.

"So you're saying all crossdreamers are masochists?"

Seems to be so.

"You're basing this off of Lawrence and Blanchard"

No.

"It looks like you're making the same arguments that were used against homosexuals in the past"

No.

"Say we're all a bunch of perverts and send us out for psychiatric evaluation."

No.

"I have nothing against most fetishes, most people have them."

What is a fetish?

"But I have a real problem with people who try to stereotype a group."

Like "crossdreaming"?

joanna Santos said...

I am transgender and completely disagree with you anonymous but it is your perogative to argue for what you believe. I know I am not a fetishist, masochist, sissy or into any sort of humiliation. I am high on the tg spectrum and pretty close to transsexual by my own self diagnosis from my 50 years on this planet plus all my reading. I have different opinions to the simplified and convenient models of blanchard, bailey and lawrence.

I am happy as I am and no longer need to justify myself to anyone. If you are happy with your masochism model be my guest. In the end it likely won't change the way you live day to day.

Anonymous said...

"I am transgender and completely disagree with you anonymous but it is your perogative to argue for what you believe."

I am addressing the phenomenology of the sexual fantasies.

Lindsay said...

Anonymous said:

"I wish I could come up with a nicer term but, what a load of crap."

You seem to disagree, but you do not address the presence of masochism."

Because I don't think that masochism (or any other fetish) is a necessary component to be a crossdreamer. I'm not masochistic. The only masochistic thing I've done is argue with you :). Some crossdreamers are masochistic but most that I chat with aren't.

Anonymous said:

""You're basing this off of Lawrence and Blanchard"

No."

But you use them to cite examples of masochism. I don't trust anything they publish it is marred by sexism and homophobia.

Anonymous said:

""But I have a real problem with people who try to stereotype a group."

Like "crossdreaming"?"

Yes, you say that all crossdreamers are masochistic when that is clearly not true.

It seems clear to me that TS crossdreamers do so because it is natural for someone of their gender. If you have a female gender it's what you should fantasize about.

Lindsay


Anonymous said...

"It seems clear to me that TS crossdreamers do so because it is natural for someone of their gender. If you have a female gender it's what you should fantasize about."

This makes no sense. Are you saying TS's crossdream about masochism because of their gender? What gender is that? Are you saying that women are masochists?

Who are you to say what women "should" fantasize about?

Lindsay said...

Anonymous said:

"This makes no sense. Are you saying TS's crossdream about masochism because of their gender? What gender is that? Are you saying that women are masochists?

Who are you to say what women "should" fantasize about?"

You're the one who keeps bringing up masochism, not me. I don't see masochism as being necessary for crossdreaming. So what I'm saying is that TS's crossdream because their gender (brain) is female. They can't help it that their sex (genitals) is male.

It's easy to know what women fantasize about. Read magazines, books, blogs, etc... Watch TV and movies. Do you not understand the difference between sex and gender? Do you believe there are transsexuals?

Jack Molay said...

I would strongly recommend that all who are interested in the topic of crossdreaming among both transgender in general and transsexual in particular read Julia Serano's book Whipping Girl. She deconstructs the theory of Blanchard and Bailey, exposing it for the sexist crap it is.

She is one of the leading transsexual acitivists of our time and she does not in any way that crossdreaming fantasies are common among transsexual men and women. She speaks openly about her own past as a crossdresser and crossdreamer, but does not embrace what I call the "woman in a bottle theory", i.e. that being a trans woman is to live up to every gender stereotype of the time.

She makes the following observation as regards Blanchard's argument that all gynephilic transwomeh have had autogynephilic fantasies:

"... some crossdressers and trans women say they have never experienced sexual arousal in the manner Blanchard describes. Perhaps even more common in the MTF community are people who describe being sexually aroused by their cross-gender expression during their early stages of gender experimentation, but who over time experience a reduction or a complete loss of arousal in response to such feminine self-expression... This is a serious blow to Blanchard's model, as it suggests that sexual arousal is not what drives these trans women to change their sex."

Her explanation for MTF crossdreamers adopting the sexist imagery of contemporary society is that it is close to impossible for a MTF trans woman not to adopt "explicitly sexualizing cultural messages about womanhood and feminity". After all: They are raised as males.

Jack Molay said...

Underpinning the autogynephilic argument is the notion that humiliation fantasies are not truly feminine, as these fantasies are basically masculine. The reason "classical transsexuals" avoid this topic, is that they have bought into this idea, and believe that asexuality is a sign of true womanhood.

When I mention "Fifty Shades of Gray" it is to stress that these are exactly the kind of fantasies "real women" have. Rape fantasies are very common among XX women.

The submission fantasies of anonymous are not proof of him not being a woman, although he clearly hopes so, bringing up sissy sites and the AGP stories of Blanchard to make his argument.

If anything these fantasies are a clear indication of him having a strong female side to his psyche.

Submissive men engaging in BDSM do normally dream of being a women. Masochism does not equal femininity.

Here is Julia Serano again:

"...MTF spectrum trans people who become aware of their cross-gender desires after they have already consciously accepted the fact that they are 'boys' (i.e. Blanchard's 'autogynephilics') tend to have greater difficulty reconciling their female or feminine inclinations with societal message that insist that men and women are 'opposite' sexes, and that girls are inferior to boys.

"Rather than feeling entitled to call themselves female or to act outwardly feminine, they often develop intense feeling of shame and self-loathing regarding their cross-gender inclinations.

"To cope, they may develop sexual thoughts and fantasies that associate their desire to be female/feminine with subordination, humiliation, and sexual objectification.

"If anything, these fantasies share more in common with the exhibitionistic, submissive and rape fantasies experienced by many women rather than the sexually aggressive and objectifying fantasies commonly associated with men."

Serano calls the porn induced fantasies she herself had when younger "bastard Catholic sacraments, as I absolved myself of guilt by combining my desire to be female with self-inflicted penance and punishment."

We are finally coming to a point where submission fantasies among women, transsexual or non-transsexual, are acknowledged and discussed, and where transgender people can use them in order to understand their own being or their own journey.

That is good!

But anonymous and people like him try to short circuit this debate, because it may force them to face what they subconsciously believe is the ultimate humiliation, the one they are not willing to take in, namely: the idea that they may actually be women, for real.

Facing such a scenario it is better to cling to a alienating post-structuralist philosophy that denies that anything is real, and that their submission fantasies are nothing but endless permutations of culturally defined symbols.

There is no body, there is no blood, there is no inner woman (or as Serano calls this phenomenon: "the subconscious sex").

But in order to achieve this blissful ignorance, anonymous and friends have to include all that share the same feelings in the same life-denying fantasy. All gynephilic trans women has to become "autogynephiliacs" like themselves. And to do that anonymous gladly denies them their life experience, their sense of self and their demand for respect as complete human beings.

That is an unacceptable crime in my book. This is not a college seminar, Anonymous. This is real life. You have been allowed to make your case (- "Again!", I might add). Now please find somewhere else to preach your insulting gospel.



joannaS said...

a very well written response Jack. I had the most trouble with how Blanchard tried to explain away receeding sexual drive with increasing age. His rather lame explaination is that like ordinary love between a man and a woman, once the inital emotional infatuation stage is depleted, the couple bases their love on a deeper level of love with less sexual overtones.

This sort of hogwash is the kind of thing that Anne Lawrence has been preaching in her defense of AGP theory to try and explain her own transition.

its just bad science and I prefer Serano's explaination of the feminine feelings needing to pass through a male filter and becoming sexualized; at least in the early life of the disphoric.

Sam Z said...

Here's some thoughts which might clear things over here and it favors both of your extreme counter-views:

As for anonymous, i wonder how you explain the situation for "classic asexual transsexual identified" with the fetish / post-modern theory?
If a trans-identity is a sexual niche altogether, they wouldn't be fetishists for that matter. How could it be that all M2F are heterosexual women for that matter? Some of them will tend to be bi- / lesbian too and not men with a target location error / fetish.
How do you personally know you are not experiencing a female sex-identity? Is it because you don't feel "trapped" or because having female parts don't arouse you or seem interesting?

I believe the phrase "trapped" amongst transpeople is simply because M2F gynephiles have outwardly much less problems identifying with masculinity (interest in women, some are less feminine like some lesbians tend to be etc..) than M2F homosexuals who tend to be more feminine and are feeling completely wrong. But it seems both of these dysphoric-groups more or less have felt early on they would be happier as women and would want to be more feminine am i right?

Sam Z said...

But then I also think, like what the article says, that heving these fantasies might not be at all indicators of any dysphoria or even transgenderism. And for those who don't feel this way, it is VERY important to analyze what it is for them to be a woman in these fantasies apart from what transpeople feel? Is it that "cis-identified" people feel the thought of having the body of a female only an arousing experience, while transgenders have to have the body of the opposite sex (sexy or not) in order to feel aroused in the first place?

I have realized in the past that having female secondary charasteristics isn't something i fantisize about sexually or nonsexuality, in fact it feels weird / wrong.

Also, this story proves crossgender sexual fantasies might be far off any sense of gender.. I found this story by a M2F transsexual:

"Recently I realized I get aroused by wearing men`s clothes... It all started last year when I tried my brothers jeans and seeing the bulge was an instant turn on... I started wearing them at work too and even try to imitate masculine gestures (which I never did previously)...
I mention I`m a 29yrs old post op M2F and I never questioned my gender (female) and I don`t miss my penis either (which btw I never used)... I`m afraid I`m going to uncharted territory...
Does anybody here feel the same? :?"

And there are countless of stories about cis-men and women enjoying these sexual fantasies:

"I'm heterosexual now (and happily male) but in the past I had fantasies about being a woman too; and I had homosexual fantasies too. I never looked too much into them though. If something feels good then why not do it? I cannot possibly imagine being with a guy in real life, but I do enjoy having those fantasies every now and then.
I see this as a sexual fantasy. Why? - Because I used to imagine being a woman too when I was young, and I got very aroused by thinking this way. "

The most important thing is to distinguish how to analyze oneself better if it's only a sexual kink or to recognize if sexual fantasies revolves around being who one really is. That way, M2F gynephiles can recognize this faster and not being stuck with the fetish theory while feeling utterly confused.

theautogynephiliac said...

"Some crossdreamers are masochistic but most that I chat with aren't."

It seems that they are masochistic. The difference being the fantasy niche(s) of the individual at the time.

"But you use them to cite examples of masochism. I don't trust anything they publish it is marred by sexism and homophobia."

They are statements made by autogynephiliacs. You don't seem to have any genuine justification to totally distrust them beyond your disliking of what they propose. I myself do not completely agree with much of their theorizing.

"Yes, you say that all crossdreamers are masochistic when that is clearly not true."

Where you would propose that it is a psychosexual expression of repressed transsexualism. The fantasies of autogynephiliacs display inherent anxieties.

"It seems clear to me that TS crossdreamers do so because it is natural for someone of their gender."

The very same fantasies do seem to be shared however the individual "identifies". A crude conflation with what is thought to be "natural" female fantasies.

http://sissyfemminuccia.tumblr.com/

"but who over time experience a reduction or a complete loss of arousal in response to such feminine self-expression... This is a serious blow to Blanchard's model, as it suggests that sexual arousal is not what drives these trans women to change their sex."

Both she and Blanchard fail to address the historical psychological context of the "fetishism". Of which, autogynephilic fantasies which continue after transition are expected, however reconstituted to changing circumstances.

"Underpinning the autogynephilic argument is the notion that humiliation fantasies are not truly feminine, as these fantasies are basically masculine."

No, simply the sexualization of anxiety, which does not have any inherent bearing on the identity of the subject.

"Rape fantasies are very common among XX women."

The phenomenology is different. Typical "rape" fantasies on part of women are constituted by the idealized cultural differences between the sexes.

It is key to understand that for the autogynephiliac, there is sexual arousal by the anxiety of the very thought of being related to femininity.

"humiliation fantasies are the psyche's way of handling the impossible:"

The fantasies are manifestly determined by anxiety, where "humiliation" scenarios are simply scenarios where the anxiety is displayed in a recognisable manner. Nothing is presented beyond this, not an alleviation of guilt, not a way of "handling the impossible", simply anxiety itself.

"To cope, they may develop sexual thoughts and fantasies that associate their desire to be female/feminine with subordination, humiliation, and sexual objectification."

This has been addressed repeatedly, it is not an issue. Any sort of trans identity is an adjunct condition of the required anxieties.

"But anonymous and people like him try to short circuit this debate"

You (Jack Molay) do not want to debate, you want to propagate your theory of psychosexual transsexual expression, otherwise repressed transsexualism.

When one states otherwise, that there doesn't have to be any trans identity at all, you begin suppressing, whether banning or reducing posting capabilities.

"the ultimate humiliation, the one they are not willing to take in, namely: the idea that they may actually be women, for real."

Being "a woman" does do not figure if fantasies per se. There is nothing that constitutes "being a woman" other than how one happens to oppose masculinity and femininity.

"submission fantasies are nothing but endless permutations of culturally defined symbols."

http://cuckoldsessionsblog.com/

theautogynephiliac said...

"There is no body, there is no blood, there is no inner woman"

This lady seems to be referenced as if she is some sort of authority. I don't think she is of much help here.

"All gynephilic trans women has to become "autogynephiliacs" like themselves."

No, trans persons don't necessarily have autogynephilic fantasies.

"anonymous and friends have to include all that share the same feelings in the same life-denying fantasy."

Although I don't enjoy your own captions, we are masturbating over the same stuff.

"And to do that anonymous gladly denies them their life experience, their sense of self and their demand for respect as complete human beings."

No. However one identifies, is not necessarily constrained by what they are sexually aroused by, even if what they are sexually aroused by historically accounts for how they identify. You are manipulating what is being proposed in presenting either transsexual psychosexual expression, otherwise deluded non-transgender pervert.

"This is not a college seminar, Anonymous. This is real life."

When it suits yourself.

"I had the most trouble with how Blanchard tried to explain away receeding sexual drive with increasing age."

Isn't a reduced sexual sexual drive due to age, a universal phenomenon? Where one is progressive left with the invested affinities regarding that which is sexually arousing.

"its just bad science and I prefer Serano's explaination of the feminine feelings needing to pass through a male filter and becoming sexualized; at least in the early life of the disphoric."

You don't seem to recognise the simple "fetishism" of AGP, where dysphoria is an adjunct presence in a small minority.

"How do you personally know you are not experiencing a female sex-identity? Is it because you don't feel "trapped" or because having female parts don't arouse you or seem interesting?"

My AGP fantasies are clearly structured by the anxiety of relating oneself through feminine symbolism. Otherwise general sexual activity with girls.

"fantasies might not be at all indicators of any dysphoria or even transgenderism. And for those who don't feel this way, it is VERY important to analyze what it is for them to be a woman in these fantasies apart from what transpeople feel?"

Yes it is very complicated. A genuine theory has to address the dynamics of sexual mediation and psychological emergence.

"That way, M2F gynephiles can recognize this faster and not being stuck with the fetish theory while feeling utterly confused."

I wouldn't really say it is a "fetish theory". But a theory which actually addresses the phenomenology of the fantasies, and real psychological dynamics. Where Jack wants to justify transsexualism exclusively in any way he can, where a genuine theory recognises the "mere fetishism" and even how it can influence the trans identification of the minority.

joanna Santos said...

I understand fully what everyone is saying. I personally identify as a trans person and so am apparently part of that minority for whom AGP is much more than a so called kink.

But to again address the issue of waning sexual drive - what I was saying is that if it were only a kink then my feminine identification or fantasies should be reducing in conjunction with my decreasing sex drive. Interestingly the opposite is happening where now at 50 years of age I need to live more of my time as a woman and I identify even more as a female.

Those people for whom AGP is only a sexual fetish should in theory see less of this behavior as they age.

joanna Santos said...

Incidentally, perhaps I negated to specify that I live about half of my time as a passable woman and yet exhibit much of what Blanchard and Lawrence referred to as AGP. So its gone beyond fantasy and into reality for me.

I may be at some point considering living full time as a woman with no surgery or HRT.

There are many more like me so if we are talking about AGP in the context of a purely psycho sexual experience then perhaps I have been misdiagnosing myself...

Jack Molay said...

"You (Jack Molay) do not want to debate, you want to propagate your theory of psychosexual transsexual expression, otherwise repressed transsexualism. "

Really? Then why do we have this debate, right here, right now?

I have not only allowed a discussion of altenative interpretations of crossdreaming at this blog, I have encoraged it.

But you are right about one thing. I am not going to allow anyone to use this blog to systematically denigrate transsexual men and women, no more than I accept racism or the sexualization of homosexuals. I am sick and tired of people trying to reduce the complexity of real life to simplistic sex theories. And the fact is that you are repeating the same old sexist cliches about trans people, maybe in a more sophisticated wrapping, but the end result is the same.

It is a fair guess that you are whyxlup, who has already been banned from this blog for this very reason. The only reason I have allowed this exchange is the fact that I cannot be sure about you being him. Everyone is to get a fair chance of making their case here.

Still, I am not going to let all discussions on this blog be reduced to a response to your thinking. This was post about the love life of non-transsexual crossdreamers. That discussion is now dead.

I take note of the fact that you have dismissed Julia Serano before reading her. Too bad, you could have learned a lot from her.

Jack Molay said...


@anonymous

Finally, a point of clarification: I do not believe all crossdreamers are repressed transsexuals. The main message in the post was that they are not.

I believe the various transgender (≠transsexual) conditions we are facing are caused by a mix of - and an interaction between - genetic, epigenetic, hormonal, cultural, social and /or personal factors. Moreover, most of these factors will vary in degree or intensity.

The fact that both transsexual and nontransexual crossdreamers crossdream, however, makes it unlikely that the two groups are completely unrelated.

Since it is clear to me that few transsexuals are primaily or only motivated by their sexual fantasies when choosing to transition, it is reasonable that the crossdreaming is caused by another underlying condition. In those suffering from gender dysphoria this condition is clearly linked to some kind of inborn sex-identity.

This means that transsexual and non-transsexual crossdreamers must at least share parts of this cause.

Maybe the crossdreamers who are not gender dysphoric have a mixed sex identity. Other may score on some of the factors that cause transsexuality and not on others. The fact is: We do not know.

Unlike you, I actually believe what transwomen are saying about themselves, probably because my own gender dysphoria makes me more like them.

In other words: I see and feel something you don't. And to me ut is absolutely clear that crossdreaming is an effect and not the cause if whatever it is you will call this. And it is this, as well as your philosophical lock in, that leads this discussion nowhere.

Again: I am not going to allow this type of discussion to dominate this blog. I suggest you continue over at whyxlup's blog, where you will find people who understand you, and allow the rest of us to get back to our lives.

Go to: http://theautogynephiliac.blogspot.com

joanna Santos said...

amen to that amen! and thank you...

theautogynephiliac said...

"what I was saying is that if it were only a kink then my feminine identification or fantasies should be reducing in conjunction with my decreasing sex drive."

Not necessarily. Whilst sexual mediation can psychologically root and reinforce such, a psychological presence of any kind is not necessarily constrained by it's context of genesis. For example a love of painting may define one's life and identity, but itself may not be reducible to the artist or works that is responsible for the love to begin with.

"I am not going to allow anyone to use this blog to systematically denigrate transsexual men and women"

The use of "denigration" is your manipulation. You are the one manipulatively proposing a defence the terms that if one isn't a transsexual, then one is a deluded pervert. What I am actually proposing is a sexual phenomenology without a necessitating transgender presence, and also the potential for genuine transgender psychological investment.

"I am sick and tired of people trying to reduce the complexity of real life to simplistic sex theories."

Again, you are the one being simplistic, proposing an exclusive existentialistic, deterministic transsexual reduction, almost completely devoid of the vagueness or psychology.

"And the fact is that you are repeating the same old sexist cliches about trans people"

No, I am not. However trans identification is historically rooted, does not necessarily constrain it. The identification can be totally legitimate, and in addition, legitimacy can be rooted in almost anything.

"I take note of the fact that you have dismissed Julia Serano before reading her."

And you manipulatively misrepresent me. What I know of Serano is what has been represented and paraphrased. Dismissal, perhaps, but she has not added anything to this discussion here, other than a supposed appeal to authority.

"I do not believe all crossdreamers are repressed transsexuals."

Do you acknowledge the simple fetishism and trans identification as an adjunct precondition of sexualization and and adjunct potential psychological investment?

Do you acknowledge that sexuality can historically root a legitimate trans identity?

theautogynephiliac said...

"I believe the various transgender (≠transsexual) conditions we are facing are caused by a mix of - and an interaction between - genetic, epigenetic, hormonal, cultural, social and /or personal factors."

Do you acknowledge the nebulousness of "self identification", that the properties in question do not necessitate anything other than psychological constitution?

That you ideologically assume a biological root, and manipulate inauthenticity when proposed otherwise?

"The fact that both transsexual and nontransexual crossdreamers crossdream, however, makes it unlikely that the two groups are completely unrelated."

There is a misleading simplicity here in your terms and also in your presuppositions regarding the experience of "dysphoria". What is present is a sexual experience and wider psychological context. A psychological space between "mere fetishist", sexual longings, dysphoria and transgender identification.

"Since it is clear to me that few transsexuals are primaily or only motivated by their sexual fantasies"

I have never proposed that one transitions exclusively on the basis of sexual mediation. Rather that the desire to ACTUALLY transition will be based on relatively strong psychological investments, rooted historically in sexual mediation. The difference here is between direct sexual mediation and the context of psychological becoming, which absolutely must be understood.

"Unlike you, I actually believe what transwomen are saying about themselves, probably because my own gender dysphoria makes me more like them"

Again, your terms are misleadingly simplistic.

"In other words: I see and feel something you don't."

Dysphoria, of which you ground in your ideological terms and I see as more complicated.

"And it is this, as well as your philosophical lock in, that leads this discussion nowhere."

Not a "lock in". Simply trans identity is psychologically adjunct. A sexual experience that does not necessitate any transgenderism, yet can produce legitimate transgender identification.

"I am not going to allow this type of discussion to dominate this blog."

When it suits yourself.

Innis Anity said...

What we have here is a "debate" by blind men about the phenomenology of the color red. Boring in the extreme.

r2d2

joanna Santos said...

Boring indeed....

joanna Santos said...

Autogynrphiliac clearly has a strong almost illogical bias against even the possibilty of a biological root for all this.

I find that fascinating because the fact that we have not yet found a genetic marker does not mean one does not exist.

The best we can say is that we don't know but strong evidence of the tenaciousness and persistence of this condition (even when the person fights desperately against it) would at least suggest there's a good case there to be made.

Your absolute refusal to even entertain the possibility is irrational.

theautogynephiliac said...

"a strong almost illogical bias against even the possibilty of a biological root for all this."

A biological root regarding what...

1. A common "fetish", overlapping with little structural difference with other autophilic and masochistic fetishes. A biological root for autogynephilia, is a biological root for furrys and cuckoldism.

2. "Dysphoria". What is it that "dysphoria" represents? Do autogynephiliacs have a greater propensity to perceive what are otherwise general sexual longings in terms of "dysphoria"? Yes, this is commonplace. The gut wrenching sexual longing one feels when separated from his lover and anticipates, is what seems to be the very feeling I also feel when formulating an unbearably sexy caption, or seeing a girl on the train wearing a sexy suit and imaging that I was subjected to that very suit.

Much autogynephiliac attribution to "dysphoria" is conflating with more complicated psychological dynamics related with the particulars of an individuals sexual longings. Also it can not be more overstated that most autogynephiliacs are not dysphoric, which reflects the niches of AGP fantasies and the wider psychological context of the individual.

"Dysphoria". A relative dissatisfaction of distress, but what is the object(s) of such?

It seems that there are two levels of "dysphoria" on part of an autogynephiliac with no pre-existing trans-idenfication.

1. A conflation of normal feelings of sexual longings, with feelings attributed to the traditional trans narrative.

2. A progression and perhaps self-sustaining emergent psychology, which can produce similar psychological conditions as the traditional trans narrative.

"the fact that we have not yet found a genetic marker does not mean one does not exist."

It is interesting that people are so utterly oblivious to that fact that how we think, is substantially constituted by how we have happened to think.

Look towards that which mediates our thought, and you have a collection of non-gendered variables, which within culture are gendered. Commonsense falsely dictates that these culturally gendered objects are biological archetypes. Not that this has anything to do furries or cuckoldism.

"The best we can say is that we don't know but strong evidence of the tenaciousness and persistence of this condition (even when the person fights desperately against it) would at least suggest there's a good case there to be made."

You think that people can only feel strongly about things that are biologically mediated? Alcoholism? Psychologically speaking and in all seriousness, do you think people like the following, do what they do because the are "merely" sexually aroused by so?

http://www.eunuch.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?26-Penectomy-Bulletin-Board

What is the psychological conditions for which one could go through with such and live with such for the remainder of their life? Again it is a serious situation. It is something sexually arousing, but the "becoming more" than a fetish is real and must be addressed and elucidated.

joanna Santos said...

My identity is not sexually arousing. It is simply my identity.

This is my last post on this thread with apologies to jack....

theautogynephiliac said...

"My identity is not sexually arousing. It is simply my identity."

That is not what is being proposed.

Lindsay said...

To the autogynephyliac:

You really need to learn how to express your opinions to the average person. Your use of highly technical jargon just confuses most of us. I'm an electrical engineer so I'm no dummy, but I'm tired of jumping back and forth to Wikipedia to try to understand your techno babble. Also, you don't need to personally shoot down everybody else's opinions just because you disagree with them.

I think that everyone here would agree with you that our life experiences help shape who we are, both consciously and subconsciously (which is what I think you're trying to say). But your refusal to admit that there might be a biological component really hurts your credibility.

I also think that most people here would agree that some people (the fetishists) may be explained completely by your theory. The TG/TS's are only partially explained by it, if at all.

Lindsay

Sam Z said...

Hmm when did this turn into a debate between right and wrong?

We should focus on the topic, plz!

theautogynephiliac said...

"But your refusal to admit that there might be a biological component really hurts your credibility."

It has been addressed repeatedly.

That something like a biological component among the conditions in presexualized anxiety is adjunct. It is obvious in the case of "mere fetishists" that mere perceived inadequacies and other anxieties historically constitute their "fetishism", yet an AGP & ideologically trans-identified person will appeal to special terms to account for themselves (biological component). Namely that the very same presexualized conditions will usually be interpreted in accordance with a more traditional trans narrative.

Regarding the emergence of dysphoria in AGPs, it is imperative to understand the historical psychological context of sexual desires. What are the properties that are represented in "dysphoria", what is one doing when they are self-identifying? How can longings become distressing? We see the phenomenon everywhere, of affinities or a general love of the object of sexual desire, and little difference in it shaping how one perceives the world and identifies.

The difference is where it is obvious that in the production of AGP itself, that any biological component is adjunct, but a dysphoric AGP ideologically desires an account necessitating a biological component which they see (unnecessarily) as legitimating their identity. The logic goes that if not biologically grounded, than it is directly sexually grounded. No it is not that simple. Sexuality can historically root the conditions of legitimate transgender self-identification.

Jack Molay said...

@Anonymous

Your complete lack of respect for transsexual men and women is amazing, as is your complete insbility to understand what it means to be gender dysphoric. Your quasi-philosophical ramblings
about what it means to feel gender incongruence makes it perfectly clear that you have absolutely no clue.

This brings ua back to the exact same situation as when 'wxhylup' dominated discussions at this blog:

1. Every discussion ends up as a response to your monomanic ramblings.

2. Every discussion becomes dominated by you repeatedly insulting transwomen by reducing them to sexualized fetishists.

This will never be an arena for the belittling and persecution of trans people. Anyone deliberately and consciously contributing to the stigmatization of trans people will be banned.

I am sick and tired of you abusing my wish for an open discussion about crossdreaming. You really have to work on your people skills.

And please stop reappering under new identities. Your style if writing is hard to miss, Wxhlup!

@Samz

This does not in any way apply to you. You will get a response from me asap.

joanna Santos said...

I agree with lindsay.

theautogynephiliac said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
theautogynephiliac said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Jack Molay said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jack Molay said...

@Anonymous/theAutogynephiliac

Here is how this works. Blogger does not allow me to ban individual commenters as such. However, there are ways of removing all comments from one person in one go, and if I am forced to do so that is what will happen.

I hope to avoid that, because in spite of what you want everyone to believe, I actually want these discussions to be available for future reference.

You are a seriously disturbed human being with seemingly no ability to understand the general rules of civilized social interaction.

You seem incapable of understanding the effects your action has on others, being that transsexuals or people like me.

Alternatively, you do actually understand the effects of what you are doing, but do not give a damn, either because you think being human is to reduce interaction to a rational discourse devoid of feelings, or you are actually deliberately trying to hurt me and others like me.

It doesn't matter really. Me banning you is no threat to the freedom of speech. You have already your own blog and can talk there all you want.

I for one is not going to take this kind of abuse from anyone. So get out and stay out. You are a bully and it is long time since I let bullies rule my life.

theautogynephiliac said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Lindsay said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

http://theautogynephiliac.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/manipulation-in-crossdream-discourse.html

Anonymous said...

I think it is unfair to assume, as the title of this post clearly implies, that transsexuals are "crossdreamers".

The problem with this implication is that it makes an assumption based on the anecdotal reports of those that may or may not be actual transsexuals as opposed to understandably confused crossdreamers or autogynephiliacs.

Jack Molay said...

Crossdreaming, in the sense of getting aroused from the idea of being the other sex relative to one's birth sex is very common among transsexual men and women. Julia Serano, referred to above, is only one of many transwomen who has written about this. I have a large number of reports from transmen saying the same.

For transsexual men and women who have not transitioned and who are nor asexual crossdreaming is a given fact. Sexual fantasies must include the concept of you having a body in harmony with your real sex identity when having sex. Having such a body becomes arousing in itself by association.

It is true that heterosexual transsexual men and women (androphilic MTF transwomen and gynephilic FTM transmen) are less likely to report crossdreamer fantasies to researchers, but this is most likely because they have had a sex life as 'gay' before transitioning. For them dreaming of having sex as their target sex is just given and not something reported as autogynephilia. Or maybe some of them are not transsexual at all.

Most of the reports from MTF transwomen I have seen indicate that crossdreaming stops or abates after transitioning. As the female self is allowed to express herself in a natural way, the idea of being transformed stops being exciting in itself.

There are exceptions, howevers. I seen TG cappers who continue to write TG fiction post-op. I guess they have established an arousal pattern that is so strong, that it takes time for it to fade away. This is to be expected, the diversity of transgender people considered.

theautogynephiliac said...

"Crossdreaming, in the sense of getting aroused from the idea of being the other sex relative to one's birth sex is very common among transsexual men and women."

Translation,

Identifying as dysphoric or even transgendered is quite common for male sexed persons who are sexually aroused by relating to oneself through femininity.

Julia Serano is one of this minority of whom are aroused by such, who also identify as dysphoric. It is common for such dysphoric identifying persons to account for what they are aroused by in special circumstances, as the unnecessary feel that it illegitimates the dysphoric identification. Dysphoria is superfluous to that which one is sexually aroused by here. These dysphoric persons thus like to think that everyone who is also aroused by such is transsexual, and even if they have never felt dysphoria, then they are simply repressed transsexuals.

"For transsexual men and women who have not transitioned and who are nor asexual crossdreaming is a given fact."

Don't be fooled. Molay would have you think that "crossdreaming" is the "natural" fantasies on part of the other sex, by crude and ignorant conflation. Actually is it what used to be referred to as "transvestic fetishism", constituted as sexual arousal by the anxiety of being related to femininity, typified here,

http://www.petticoatpunishmentart.com/docs/cjarticles.html

"Sexual fantasies must include the concept of you having a body in harmony with your real sex identity when having sex."

This is a crude reduction of femininity to an anatomic symbolism of femininity. Credulous and not representative of the actual fantasies of these persons.

"Most of the reports from MTF transwomen I have seen indicate that crossdreaming stops or abates after transitioning."

Neutralization or reconstitution is expected when continuously immersed in anything of enjoyment. You can see many accounts of such fantasies of AGPs continuing after transition, even previously on this page.

"There are exceptions, howevers. I seen TG cappers who continue to write TG fiction post-op. I guess they have established an arousal pattern that is so strong, that it takes time for it to fade away."

Usually things which are predominantly sexually arousing for individuals are permanently imprinted in their psyche. This should remain for the individual's lifetime, or as the libido reduces with age or other effects such as hormones. This doesn't necessarily touch of the historical psychological context of sexuality and self-identification in the individual.

Innis Anity said...

Again you disingenuously conflate the clearly distinct terms, trans gender and transsexual.

This together with your shameless and completely unfounded assertion that...
"It is true that heterosexual transsexual men and women (androphilic MTF transwomen and gynephilic FTM transmen) are less likely to report crossdreamer fantasies to researchers, but this is most likely because they have had a sex life as 'gay' before transitioning."
This clearly reinforces wxylup's contention that you are pushing your own agenda in an effort to legitimize your own personal struggle with AGP.

In fact, while you and Serano *might* have some valid ideas that apply to the wide variety of transgender, "crossdreamers" and many others suffering from or enjoying AGP and/or GID, they have absolutely no relevance to those born transsexual.

Please do not try to make this about 'better than' or 'more legitimate'. It is not. What I object to is your overgeneralizing, and in so doing, causing unnecessary harm to those trying to understand their own individual lives.

The truth is that you have absolutely NO idea what it means to be born transsexual. Please stop pretending that you do.

Respectfully,

r2d2

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