November 10, 2013

On crossdreaming lesbians and sexy trans women

Part 2 of the "Gay" vs. "Straight" Crossdreamers Series.

In part 1 of this series  I looked at crossdreaming among transgender men who are attracted to men.

Crossdreamers fantasise about being the other sex.

The science of "autogynephilia" and related schools of thought argue that there are two types of male to female trans people, and only the ones attracted to women have crossdreaming fantasies (i.e. they get aroused by the idea of being a woman).

In this post I will take a look at female to male "homosexual" crossdreamers, before going back  trans women who love men.

What about the lesbians and trans men?

Blanchard's denial of the existence of female to male androphilic (man-loving) crossdreamers will go into history as one of the most embarrassing blunders in the history of sexology, proving once and for all that the man has absolutely no understanding of what he is talking about.

He does recognize that lesbians and trans men exist, however.  So the question is: are there female to male gynephilic -- i.e. woman loving -- crossdreamers out there (XX lesbians or trans men)?

Here is a comment added to this blog by "happy as i am":

"I'm new to this site..I recently started dating again at 59. I am a woman and lesbian..when I am sexual I completely believe I am a man.. my fantasies are me being in a male body and when I do have sex it is total visualization of me having a penis. only one partner has ever said something and she said it is like your spirit crosses over.. 

"I never thought to google it till this new relationship started up 6 weeks ago..she is very feminine and it is bringing this to the forefront in a way that made me think more about it. I believe it should be in the DSM [the American psychiatric manual] simply because I always wondered if others have these same feelings and sometimes it affects me and how I act in different sexual relationships. 

"I now want to be free to be and act sexually in sync with who I feel I am. I am more soft butch / adrogynous but male when I am having sex.. I think it would help to have therapists be aware that this exists so they can help folks understand and accept it. I am quite happy with myself as I am and have no issues with it but it is helpful to know that I am not alone with this."


She and I have exchanged emails, and I can confirm that she is indeed a crossdreamer. She masturbates to crossdreamer fantasies. (And she is not the only one. Dr Tracie O'Keefe has presented more cases like this one).

When "happy as i am" asked one of her lesbian friends, however, she was told that her friend did not have fantasies of this kind. This may imply that  only some lesbians crossdream or that some lesbians interpret the question differently.

I suspect the latter. Let me explain why.

Packing

Did you know that there is a large marked for  limp strap-on rubber cocks for lesbians?

The fact that they are using strap-on dildos can possible be explained away as a practical way of ensuring "masculine" dominance in bed and at the same time achieving that much coveted penetration (see my post on lesbian women watching gay porn). That is: You might possibly argue that a lesbian wearing the strap-on does not get aroused by the idea of having a male organ. She just applies one for practical purposes.

But soft rubber penises?  Why on earth would they wear something like that?  The only explanation that makes any sense is that they love the feeling of "packing" something down there.

The lesbian blogger Sinclair Sexsmith puts in this way:
One of the products reviewed by Sinclair Sexsmith.
It is called the Mr. Limpy Packer (I am not kidding!)

"One of my particularly favorite sex toy stores sent me a slew of packing cocks to review – cocks that aren’t necessarily hard enough to fuck with, but which you can wear around and feel that weight between your legs, to tuck into jeans and rub up against your honey when you go out dancing, to get a little squeeze on the ride home, to fuck with gender, to feel more complete, to feel more powerful, just for fun."

She wants to feel more powerful, feel more complete. 

This sounds familiar. Male to female crossdreamers who secretly wear women's underwear will say that the lingerie makes them feel more feminine and therefore more complete.

According to the autogynephilia theory the feelings of Sinclair and the feeling of the male to female crossdresser have absolutely nothing in common. The male to female crossdresser is a paraphiliac (pervert), while the "kinky queer butch top" has been taken out of the American psychiatric manual.

The terminology is too restricting

There is something seriously wrong with the way researchers like Blanchard think about this. How can they miss the similarities between lesbians packing and crossdresser wearing feminine underwear?

I am not sure the people asked actually understand what the question "are you aroused by the idea of being a woman/a man"  is about. Or if they do understand it, they respond negatively, because they -- rightly, in my opinion -- interpret their own arousal as the effect of a complex set of different variables, where the very idea of having the body of the opposite sex is only one of many.

Among the other variables you will find arousal from the idea of being a sexy and attractive woman, arousal from embodying femininity/masculinity, arousal from expressing sensuality, arousal from being desired and so on and so forth.

Transgender vloggers exploring their sexuality

YouTube has made transgender people of all variants more visible, and some of these videobloggers have effectively  debunked the idea that all gynephilic trans women are "old, ugly, men in frocks". The new generation of lesbian trans women is indistinguishable from the the man-loving ones in this department.

I have no way of saying if Homecoming Queen Cassidy Campbell is a crossdreamer or not. I cannot read her mind, and to my knowledge she has never said anything about this publicly.

I would guess that she would find the crossdreamer concept irrelevant, in the same way she would not consider herself a crossdresser (even if she, while presenting legally as a boy, did dress up as a woman). The reason for this is that she is -- in fact -- a young woman.

Since she is attracted to men, she cannot be categorized as an "autogynephile" according to Blanchard's theory.

This is where it gets extremely confusing. Does Cassidy get excited by the idea of being a sexy woman? According to the theory she cannot.

Take a look at the following video. Skip to 3:50 if you want to get straight to my point.


You can see an even more explicit example of the sexual nature of this kind of gender expression here.

Now I want you take a deep breath and not jump to conclusions. What I am saying here is not that Cassidy is the same as 50 year old crossdresser identifying as a male. I am not saying that she wants to become a woman because she finds being sexy sexy.

What I am saying is that sex (as in sexuality) is an integrated part of sex (as in sex identity). The fact she  express that sexuality does not make her less of a woman. Quite the opposite, actually!

Exploring your sexuality is a natural part of developing a sex identity

Real women do not get aroused by the idea of being sexy.
The impossible ideal of the Virgin Mary has made it
extremely hard for women to admit their true feelings.
What I see in this video is a young woman exploring her sexuality, in the same way nearly all teenage girls her age experiment with make-up and dresses, testing out what it means to be a sexual being. What Cassidy does is natural.

To me  it is impossible to draw a clear line between this behavior and these feelings and the ones of her fellow lesbian trans women.  That distinction only exists in the minds of sexists researchers, and not in real life.

In the same way Cassidy dresses up sexy in order to explore her feminine side, lesbian and bisexual trans women do the same in order to understand their own sexual female self.

And if we can agree that that is the case, it becomes close to impossible to argue that all male to female crossdreamers, no exceptions allowed, dress up like sexy women because they have the hots for themselves. If women, trans or non-trans, get excited by being sexy, all crossdreamers must be allowed to do so without being labelled as perverts.

Transsexual woman Tobi Hill-Meyer give and excellent example of standard "autogynephilic" behavior among non-trans women over at her blog. She tells the story of how some of her non-trans girl friends decided to battle depression by dressing up sexy:

"My girlfriend sat her down and gave her [the depressed friend] some sage advice.  'Just put you nice new dress on, as well as your fancy new underwear.  It will make you feel sexy and you’ll feel better.'  'Then what, just work while wearing it?' 'Yeah.'

Warnings had been popping into head the whole time but now alarm bells were going off.  I so desperately wanted to warn them 'Don’t do that! You’re directly admitting a connection between feminine clothing and sexual arousal and using that almost as if you’re self medicating!  No one will take you seriously as a real woman, you’ll just be seen as some fetishist!'"

Her friends did not care, of course. They didn't know about Ray Blanchard.

I will argue that even non-transsexual crossdreamers have erotic fantasies of being other sex, because this is a way for them to express another side of their soul -- a feminine side in the case of male to female crossdreamers.

That does not necessarily make them women. Only a minority of them suffer from gender dysphoria or identify completely with their target sex. But they do have something in common with trans women, which is why they share similar crossdreamer fantasies.

Modern autogynephile exploring her sexuality.
Trans people reclaiming their sexuality

Given that the sex drive is one of the strongest drives of the human psyche it is no wonder that gender variance also expresses itself through sexual fantasies and desires.

Which is why I have found a recent development in the transgender sphere to be very interesting.

Young trans people are getting more open about their sexual feelings. There is less guilt there.

The fact that many are starting to make fun of the autogynephilia theory while at the same time embracing their sexuality, points in the same direction. Here is one wonderful tweet that illustrates this:

tweet saying -autogynephilia - or as cis women are allowed to call it - feeling sexy
"Autogynephilia". Or as cis [non-trans] women are allowed to call, it "feeling sexy".

The fact is that the autogynephilia theory only makes sense if you think sexual arousal is a male prerogative. The theory did indeed grow out of a traditions were only men are allowed to sexually aggressive. But seriously, this is 2013! Do we really believe that real women are  asexual virgins anymore?

In the next post of this series I will take a look at how the autogynephilia researchers falsify their data in order to be able to stigmatize gynephilic male to female trans people.

Huffington Post on Cassidy Lynn Campbell
Transgender teen Cassidy Lynn Campbell breaks down after barrage of hate following homecoming win
Blanchard's Core Autogynephilia scale
Why Do Teenage Girls Dress Like Sluts? Because They’re Teenagers.



This blog post is part of the following series:
  1. When men loving men crossdream
  2. On crossdreaming lesbians and sexy trans women
  3. Autogynephilia: Bad Science Revisited
  4. What explains the difference between the two types of MTF transgender?

83 comments:

tg_captioner said...

that video of the transgender homecoming queen was beautiful.

Go figure, women who want a penis in their pants only costs them $11. Vagina panties for us men starts at $100 (and goes up to $400).

I think most crossdressers (including myself) dress sexy because we feel like if we're going to go through all the effort and time, we might as well make it worth it (feel sexually charged and aroused). What would be the fun in dressing like a frumpy girl? I mean that would be like spending 2 hours to dress up like bill clinton for Halloween. It's not scary, it's not timely, and it wouldn't be worth the effort.

joannaS said...

The more I read on this site from all perspectives, the more I realize that there are a miriad of variations out there. Lesbians with strap ons is no more or less normal than me wearing my falsies. Its all part of the rainbiw of human gender expression and sexuality that exists out there. You may not find solace in being part of the statistical majority but you do find that there are many, many people out there just like yourself who may have the same leanings. Variations are found everywhere in nature so why not here as well!

joannaS said...

Jack,

I also very strongly agree with the assertion that young trans people could care less about the gender theories of blanchard and others and this is mostly about their not previously being infected with negative messages and undue levels of guilt. Older people such as myself carried that yoke for a long time and it's nice to see this generation going more by feel and self expression rather than obeying convention. In fact this type of malleability may allow some of them to avoid transition all together which in many cases is the right thing to do.

A. Quiet Voice said...
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A. Quiet Voice said...
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Jack Molay said...

@joanna

There are times when I think I have written enough about Blanchard. We have thoroughly debunked his mythology and need to move on.

But then, every time, a crossdreamer pops up, having found himself in Blanchard, now trying bravely to live as a "paraphiliac". The autogynephilia "meme" is still doing a lot of damage, leading to much suffering -- suicide even. So we have to continue talking about it, unfortunately.

In other words: We need to make crossdreamers understand that they are truly part of the rainbow you mention, and not some deviants outside humanity.

Joe Willis said...

@Jack,
Do you have any idea as to whether it is the gynephilic transwoman or the heterosexual transwoman who suffers more stigma and discrimination in society? I think it is the hetero transwoman because for her, it is difficult to live with a man. But, don't the lesbian transwoman have it easier?

Jack Molay said...

It seems to me the gynephilic, lesbian, trans women have it harder, for different reasons:

1. So far in history they have had a tendency of transitioning later, which means that the testosterone has had more time to masculinize them. They are older, and find it harder to pass.

2. Most of them are unable to live up to the gender stereotype, where women love men. The androphilic ones are easier to understand, as they live up to the myth that real women love men.

3. They will find it harder to find love. They will find it hard to attract lesbian XX women, and the heterosexual ones are normally not interested. This is probably the main reason so many of them end up living with other lesbian trans women.

joanna Santos said...

@Jack

"In other words: We need to make crossdreamers understand that they are truly part of the rainbow you mention, and not some deviants outside humanity"

We are part of human variation and we have always been so. What is important to remember is that there is no shame in being part of a minority even if that minority is shunned by society as a whole. Gays used to fit into that category and before that the mentally ill and before that the physically handicapped. Society will or won't adjust but you can't stop being true to yourself waiting for that to happen so just live your life and be happy.

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joanna Santos said...

Jack,

I promised myself I would not respond to your serial site stalker but I promise that I will stop crossdressing when she detransitions back to the male she was born as...

Lindsay said...

@Joanna

lol, one of the links is a site promoting de-transitioning. Maybe she is already in the process of doing it!

Lindsay

A. Quiet Voice said...
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joannaS said...

Mitchell I like your thinking but sometimes crackpot ideologues need to be exposed even if they are spewing garbage...

One of the more flagrant on display here is that crossdreaming is a form of illness (and for the record I believe it is) then a notch up on the insanity scale is butchering your body so it resembles a female.

Please understand that I don't critizise those who transition but I certainly don't exoect them to come here and send us links on how to repair ourselves. Feeble minded to be sure and all the more so when the person has supposedly read Benjamin and evidently gotten nothing out of it.

Jack has had no choice but to delete the comnents because as he found out previously to me you end up going in circles. I am also not angry because I do enjoy a good discussion but only when there is intelligent give and take instead of feeble rhetoric like "read 'em and weep" (??)

The fact that Jack is scoring some good arguments is the reason he is drawing attention from people with agendas which I don't necessarily think is a bad thing...

joannaS said...

And make no mistake this is one serious crackpot. But again the fact she reads the comments here and feels compelled to respond reeks of insecurity and frustration.

You don't need to be an expert in psychology to see that...lol

Yes I'm very hapoy with my life but I need to put some crossdreamers in their place for good measure. A little sad no?

Jack is scoring touches..., no question.

JS said...

Jo. The only person displaying anger and insecurity here is you. You are so afraid that you are wrong, s all you can do is insult those that point out your the inconsistencies in your so-called "arguments.

Perhaps this will help...

"What are crossdressing desires if not envy? We want what females have, things that do not properly belong to us. We envy the beauty of females. We crave and desire that beauty. We want it for ourselves. We want to be as beautiful as the women we see or imagine. We envy the feeling of “being beautiful.” Is it any surprise that crossdressers are so vain? We spend hours in front of the mirror striving for perfection in our beauty and admiring ourselves.

We envy the feminine experience. We want to experience what it is like to be a woman or a girl. We want to experience how men treat women or how they treat beautiful women. We want to be treated chivalrously. We want to experience the freedom women have to give in to specific emotions or behaviors that our culture tends to not be so accepting of with men. We envy that women get to feel sexy, sensual, spontaneous, daring, free from responsibility, provocative, cute, free to giggle, be expressive, vulnerable, sensitive, flirtatious, or gentle. We improperly think that we shouldn’t show these feelings as much as men, so we envy women being able to have these feelings, and when we crossdress we then feel free to give in to these feelings. A blogging friend has done an excellent job of cataloging his feelings of this nature that he had when crossdressing. Some of the thoughts in this paragraph come from him. Check out Shards of Narsil’s very thought provoking post called - Underlying feelings – Wants & Needs.

We envy the feminine grace of the female body. We envy the curves, the breasts, the graceful walking, and the way women dance. We might even envy the way women hold utensils or the way they wear purses. We want to copy the feminine grace and have it for ourselves.

We envy specific articles of clothing, whether we see them online, or in a magazine, in a store, or in our wife’s closet. We envy those objects and covet them to such a degree that they consume our thoughts and hinder us from getting our work done. We covet them so much that we take foolish risks to obtain those articles of clothing even if it means a storekeeper finding out about our crossdressing, or a wife catching us in the act, or us losing our jobs by being found out...."

con'd.

joannaS said...

A new name AQV? How desperate can you get,,, ha ha ha..,,

Jack I'm afraid you have your work cut out for you with all the aliases!

I love this site!

A. Quiet Voice said...
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JS said...

AQV???

con'd...

"We envy the soft or silky feel of the clothing. We envy the beautiful colors of the clothing. We envy the beauty of the feminine face with makeup. We envy the beauty of shiny painted nails. We envy the cool look of high heels. We envy what we perceive as the ability to dress in a sexy way. We envy the female clothing that we perceive as more comfortable.

In some cases we envy having a more beautiful wife or woman in our life, but instead of acting out in pornography or adultery, we act out by creating our own private woman through distorting the image of ourselves.

For those who struggle with transgender feelings, I think it is much the same. They envy the experience of being a woman, and envy the female body. They want to be a woman. They think it would be easier, or that it fits their personality or soul better. They envy the female body and want a female body for their own, even though God created them with a male body. They envy, in their perception, what it would mean to be and live as a woman. They envy some of the cultural stereotypes of women in our culture.

In short, to summarize all of this, we as crossdressers envy “the feminine,” anything and everything related to feminine beauty. We want what females have, things that do not properly belong to us. When we crossdress, it is almost like stealing because of our jealous desires. We wear things that aren’t fitting for the men we truly are. We wear clothing that is not intended for us."

Jack Molay said...

@Mitchell

"Illegitimate ideas that are granted legitimacy by some don't go away by giving them more and more attention. "

If you ignore a toxic ideology that speaks to deep held prejudices, you might soon find yourself regretting not having spent more time debunking it.

I guess there were quite a few who regretted that they had not spent more time on fighting Hitler in the 1920s.

Admittedly, the autogynephilia theory has little traction among most experts in transgender issues, and close to no supporters among transgender people (a handful of "trans kids" and the HBS crowd being the exception).

If my point was to defeat Blanchard, I could just sit down and do nothing. He has already become the joke of modern psychiatry, with his amazing attempts at turning everyone into paraphiliacs.

But the reason for his defeat is that people have been fighting him every inch of the way.

That being said, this blog post series is most of all written for crossdreamers who believe that Blanchard is the only one who have seen them, and who therefore mistakenly believes he is the only one who understands them.

Too many crossdreamers internalize and adapt Blanchard's transphobia for this very reason, ending up despising themselves even more in the process. By showing them that Blanchard's theory is unscientific bigotry, I might help them out of that trap.

I also hope to turn this discussion into something positive, and the feedback I have gotten so far is promising.

By showing that crossdreaming is found among all types of people, crossdreamers may come to accept that they are just one more wonderful variation of the diversity of life, at which point crossdreaming no longer defines them as human beings.

And Russell was wrong: When people spit on you, ridicule you, persecutes you and belittle you, you have every right to be angry. You should be angry. To many crossdreamers bow their heads, letting the bigots destroy them.

But you do have to be sure that you do not let your anger take control of your thinking. Which is why I spend so much time on documenting every argument I make.

Here is a much more relevant quote:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

joannaS said...

@Mitchell

I don't follow the point in your description at all I'm afraid. I was merely adressing our resident troll.

The envy dialogue is written by AQV aka Reality check aka Senrub and now aka JS who is a highly highly disturbed individual.

Jack will simply need to keep deleting her comments. But I do admit that I do enjoy her presence if nothing than for amusement...

joanna Santos said...

@Jack

"When people spit on you, ridicule you, persecutes you and belittle you, you have every right to be angry. You should be angry. To many crossdreamers bow their heads, letting the bigots destroy them"

I was once in this unfortunate position as well but what is most fascinating is that when HBS transsexuals ridicule us they are also ironically ridiculing themselves since they suffer from a far more acute version of the same dysphoria which finally obliges them to transition.

Most transsexuals are not as twisted as our troll but Benjamin did see some in his practice which is why he quoted "There are also transsexuals who dislike transvestites as well as homosexuals. Intolerance can be found in strange quarters.”

joanna Santos said...

oh and for the record, AQV copied that "silk" drivel on one of her repentant transgender website. She is highly predictable and not particularly bright. But I do admire her tenacity though.

Jack Molay said...

Could you point me in the direction of that web site?

I found the envy text on the blog Healing from Crossdressing (which is written by a MTF crossdreamer who continuously tortures himself in order to adapt to the evangelical gender normative.) But I have not seen this on any of the separatists blogs.

joanna Santos said...

@Jack

Here is the link:

http://healingcd.wordpress.com/2012/01/07/crossdressing-is-about-envy/

I know all about this person. He is an evangelical preacher who hates himself for being a fetish dresser. I have even written some text on his site. He freely admtits that it was for fetish reasons exclusively and that he is healed or is trying to be.

Jack Molay said...

Hm. No, I don't think he is AQV. She speaks too much HBSese, and is more likely some kind of "classic transsexual" He is more of a religious fundamentalist in existential despair. She might be using him, though.

joanna Santos said...

No Jack what I mean is that AQV used the alias JS to post that stuff. She copied it from his site. LOL....

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Lindsay said...

@Joanna

"I was once in this unfortunate position as well but what is most fascinating is that when HBS transsexuals ridicule us they are also ironically ridiculing themselves since they suffer from a far more acute version of the same dysphoria which finally obliges them to transition. "

I think I may have come up with a possible explanation on why HBSer's behave the way they do. Julia Serano writes a lot about "oppositional privilege" and about how as you change from one sex to the other you loose your privileges in one but gain them in the other. I think that the HBSer's, having gained female privileges, are scared to death that the non-transitioning TG's are somehow going cause them to loose them. That's why they are so upset about the "rest room" issue. They're afraid that the cis-gendered backlash over this may lead to the restriction of rest rooms to ones biological sex. This applies to any other women only issues that they complain about.

So, to reiterate, they are scared that they are going to loose their hard earned female privileges. Serano mentions that most people take these privileges for granted and don't even realize that they exist. I think the HBSer's don't realize it either. It still seems to me that their efforts would be better served expanding TG rights which would give them a better buffer.

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Silky said...
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A. Quiet Voice said...

Mitch. I am not following your "logic". Lindsey suggests that women who in his words have "earned/won" the privilege of being perceived as female are somehow "scared" of losing it to "non-transitioning TG"*. (*Interesting new concept. Is this your recreational CD perhaps?)

Implicit in this is the presumption that these "non-transitioning TG" deserve, or are somehow entitled to this alleged "privilege".

If you are at all familiar with the concept of feminism you would understand that male privilege far exceeds any purported female privilege.

Lindsay said...

AQV needs to read up on forms of discrimination and privilege (I'd suggest reading "Whipping Girl"). Also, she's trying to extrapolate to unsubstantiated conclusions. She also has avoided commenting on what I actually wrote and is trying to to twist it into something else, probably from not taking the time to figure out what I really said.

Lindsay

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Lindsay said...

@ Mitchell

"It is interesting how you frame your objection to Lindsay, as one of cost, or a price to pay the gatekeeper. It isn't fair to get the privileges you receive without paying the same price.

As if the cost of the privileges, and recognition of being a woman is paid with one's genitals. Or, rather, SRS isn't good in itself -- it is a means to an ends.

If you do not think SRS is good in itself, but rather a price to be paid, then it may seem like the fair thing to do to demand that everyone else must pay the same price, but wouldn't it be benevolent to not demand a high price if it is neither necessary, or beneficial in and of itself?"

The HBSer's seem to think that transition is not just a cost one has to pay, but that if the non-transitioning TG/TS crowd gains any female privilege that they will loose some of theirs. It seems to be an underlying, probably subconscious fear which they truly feel threatened by. The most obvious lost privilege seems to be bathroom privileges which the cis-gendered could take away if they wanted.

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Lindsay said...

@Joanna

"I was once in this unfortunate position as well but what is most fascinating is that when HBS transsexuals ridicule us they are also ironically ridiculing themselves since they suffer from a far more acute version of the same dysphoria which finally obliges them to transition.

Most transsexuals are not as twisted as our troll but Benjamin did see some in his practice which is why he quoted "There are also transsexuals who dislike transvestites as well as homosexuals. Intolerance can be found in strange quarters.”

The HBSer's prefer to differentiate themselves by saying that it is a sometimes fatal medical condition, when in reality it is mental condition, potentially leading to suicide, that can be cured via a medical procedure. They refuse to admit that it in reality it is just a more severe dysphoria than most transsexuals and transgendered suffer from. They seem to feel degraded by the association.

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Jack Molay said...

@Lindsay

" I think that the HBSer's, having gained female privileges, are scared to death that the non-transitioning TG's are somehow going cause them to loose them. "

I am sure you are right about this. And since they have absorbed all the 1950s and 1960s clichés about the perfect woman, they have also integrated the common disgust for the feminine male.

The fact that they are related to the non-dysphoric crossdresser make them fear contamination by association. Hence these desperate attempts at distancing themselves from the hated "transgender".

joannaS said...

@Lindsay

"The HBSer's prefer to differentiate themselves by saying that it is a sometimes fatal medical condition, when in reality it is mental condition, potentially leading to suicide, that can be cured via a medical procedure. They refuse to admit that it in reality it is just a more severe dysphoria than most transsexuals and transgendered suffer from. They seem to feel degraded by the association"

I agree Lindsay and this is what I have discovered over time in all my reading and examination of the existing literature. Most HBS'ers wont point you to any formal literature because none exists to support their position.

If dysphoria is a scaled entity varying in severity from person to person it should not mean that a transition is not valid; in fact it only bolsters it. For some odd reason, however HBS'ers don't see it this way and its either men in dresses or full blown transsexuals and nothing in between. As we know from the work of Benjamin and his over 2000 patients he considered an in between individual in his types 3 and 4.

joannaS said...

@Jack

"I am sure you are right about this. And since they have absorbed all the 1950s and 1960s clichés about the perfect woman, they have also integrated the common disgust for the feminine male.

The fact that they are related to the non-dysphoric crossdresser make them fear contamination by association. Hence these desperate attempts at distancing themselves from the hated "transgender"

This is very important point and why HBS'ers will point you to pictures of very manly looking men wearing dresses or to cases of these very same undressing in women's locker rooms (pre-op). They are pointing out how awful a world full of crossdressed pretenders would be.

But this is a red herring because what we are addressing here is dyaphoria and nothing else. I am a male and I am proud to be one but I just happen to suffer from a degree of dysphoria. I don't want to have a sex change and I am not asking for any special rights. The fact that I crossdress is my own business and the business of my partner exclusively. Just as it would be should I decide to transition.

In the end its how you manage your own life and remain balanced and happy.

joannaS said...

You will also note the HBS language of "privilege". This implies that the "men in dresses" are asking for privilege which is absolute and pure nonsense. The fact that some of us crossdream or crossdress does not require any such thing as this is not illegal.

However should a person fully transition, it should be a stretch of the imagination that this person would be addressed in gender appropriate pronouns and be treated accordingly. This person has decided to live as a woman or as a man and that should not be a problem for the rest of us.

joannaS said...

I meant to say "it should not be a stretch of the imagination" apologies...

A. Quiet Voice said...
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A. Quiet Voice said...

Jack, having spent a few moments reviewing your earlier blogs, I have come to a greater understanding of what up until now has appeared to be an irrational fear of open discussion.

It seems that for many years since you first started your blog, you subscribed to and supported those theories of BB&L you now continue to obsess about.

I will leave you with these two links to your earlier posts.

I now understand that you are still struggling to reconcile your autogynophilia by desperately trying to rationalize it as "normal". IE: "everybody" does it.

I will await your response and stand ready to re-engage in a more productive discussion, unencumbered by your manic efforts to silence me and hide the truth.

"My life as an autogynephiliac" by Jack Molay
http://www.crossdreamers.com/2009/07/my-life-as-autogynephiliac.html

"the reason I have found the term so useful, is because I recognize my own life in these descriptions." Jack
http://www.crossdreamers.com/2009/08/autogynephilia-defined.html

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Jack Molay said...

@Mitchell

Here is a presentation of the Harry Benjamin Syndrome ideology:

http://www.crossdreamers.com/2010/08/hbs-1-harry-benjamin-syndrome-part-1.html

The short version is that some transsexual right wing extremists are misinterpreting Harry Benjamin in order to develop a theory where the average crossdreamer and the pure transsexual woman have nothing in common. Benjamin argued the exact opposite.

The "syndrome" has not been accepted by anyone in the medical or psychological professions.

Please note that there are also trans women who dislike the idea of being considered "transgender", without becoming hateful. I may disagree, but have had constructive and useful dialog with several of them. Take a look at this discussion. I would not think of removing any of Kathryn Dumke's comments, as she argues in a polite and civilized manner.

AQV has become obsessed with me and my blog, because I am seriously threatening her world view.

Any normal person who has been told over and over again that this kind of behavior is unacceptable and that she is not welcome, would have stopped commenting. But it is as if she is missing one of those important "social antennas" the rest of us have developed.

I ask you all to ignore her. I will delete all her comments as soon as I see them. I have had enough of bullies.

Lindsay said...

@Jack

"Please note that there are also trans women who dislike the idea of being considered "transgender", without becoming hateful. I may disagree, but have had constructive and useful dialog with several of them. Take a look at this discussion. I would not think of removing any of Kathryn Dumke's comments, as she argues in a polite and civilized manner. "

I've been impressed by Kathryn's input too. But she doesn't seem to be a classical TS. From what I can find online she's a late transitioner, still married to her wife and with 4 children, which on the surface seems to be the type of person HBSer's abhor. She also seems to be much more open minded than the typical HBSer and she doesn't seem to harbor the resentment that HBSer's do towards TG's and non-transitioned TS's. (and we really need to come up with a different term than HBS,it does such a great disservice to Benjamin's name and reputation).

It's actually a breath of fresh air when Kathryn is commenting.

Thorin25 said...

What kind of site are you running here Jack? I am shocked by the slandering of my name by you and others.

I quote -
"I found the envy text on the blog Healing from Crossdressing (which is written by a MTF crossdreamer who continuously tortures himself in order to adapt to the evangelical gender normative.) But I have not seen this on any of the separatists blogs."

"I know all about this person. He is an evangelical preacher who hates himself for being a fetish dresser. I have even written some text on his site. He freely admtits that it was for fetish reasons exclusively and that he is healed or is trying to be."

"Hm. No, I don't think he is AQV. She speaks too much HBSese, and is more likely some kind of "classic transsexual" He is more of a religious fundamentalist in existential despair. She might be using him, though."

For a website (crossdreamers) that at least appears to be trying to be objective and scientifically driven (which is awesome! I read many of your posts myself, and try to learn from them!).... you all need to learn how to read yourselves. No where on my site do I say anything like this.

I feel free and very happy, not tortured in the least. I do not hate myself, not at all. I am not in despair at all. Nor did I say that my past dressing was exclusively about a fetish.

Thanks both of you for ignoring my words, and twisting them to suit your own pre-conceived biases. Very well done research! To be objective, you first have to stop branding people who are religious with a myriad of false unhelpful stereotypes. I am seriously really surprised. I had expected better from you Jack after reading many of your posts.....

joanna Santos said...

Thorin

You are not the only religious person here and I grew up in a very practicing catholic familly and still do. Your blog seeks to associate crossdressing with sinful and addictive behavior and it was neither jack nor myself who posted your own words here but instead a very frustrated transsexual trying to use them to bait.

Your own crossdressing is cured and you are happy? That is a good thing for you but there are other people for which quitting this "habit" is not entirely obvious and whose GID is perhaps more severe.

Please understand that no one here wishes you ill will but we are merely trying to point out that not everyone agrees with your assessment nor necessarily wishes to "cure" themselves of this affliction. Speaking for myself I am far happier using controlled crossdressing to temper my dysphoria rather than holding my breath.

But again congratulations if you have succeeded at becoming normal and certainly no disrespect intended.

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joanna Santos said...

@Lindsay

You are right that using HBSers as a term showing disrespect to Harry Benjamin since he himself would agree with nothing that they espouse.

Unfortunately the term has been used to describe the condition of transsexualism among those separatist transsexuals who consider it a medical condition and the name stuck.

A poor choice indeed...

joanna Santos said...

Thorin

I would also be very careful about allying yourself in any way with our resident crackpot. There isca plethera of venom and buffoonery posted here by her and originating from her own frustration. She cares nothing about you nor anyone else here and her intent is to simply underline and emphasize why she is so different from everyone here. The fact she continues to post here only emphasizes her problems. We should have more kathryn dunne's here...

Once again I wish you and your family the best.

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Thorin25 said...

Joanna, I do not know who that person is who was commenting and using stuff from my blog. I didn't read any of their comments other than the one where they quoted me.

I don't consider myself "cured" per say. I still have desires that come rarely from time to time, but largely the desires have gone, and it's a very easy thing to live without crossdressing, and my life is far better without it. I wouldn't want to use the word "cured" too casually. I'll save that word for someday if I completely have no more desires for crossdressing ever again. But I'm perfectly content with my life even if I can't use that word.

I have no problems with people disagreeing with me. We all need to learn how to disagree and remain civil. That is true tolerance! My problem is when people disagree with me and then go on to misrepresent my views. So you think crossdressing is not sinful, and I do, so we disagree. It is a huge leap to then say that means I am a fundamentalist living in tortured despair and that I hate myself. See what I mean? That's just not necessary and it's false. Just because some of you might live in despair without crossdressing, doesn't mean that I am. I am all for debate and healthy disagreement, but please don't caricature my views, or assume I believe certain things just because I am "religious."

Also, Joanna, I'll point out that I appreciate your civil responses just now. More like that and the world would be a better place :)

Thorin25 said...

Mitchell, I had not seen your comments about my envy post. I was only responding to the comments which I saw mention me explicitly, I was not trying to dialogue about Jack's specific post here, which I have not read, nor have I read every comment in your debate which this person who has posted a lot.

But to respond to your thoughts about my post on envy, I don't think my post says anything about self-hatred, or torturing myself, or about living unhappily.

I admit that my post is probably not nuanced enough. The readers of my blog are generally people who have struggled with crossdressing in the same addictive or gender dysphoric way that I have. It would be idiotic to reduce all crossdressing to pure envy and I don't believe I have done so. When I use the word "crossdressing" it's a loaded term that I have talked about much on my site throughout my posts. It gets very repetitive to constantly define everything over and over again for every post. Much in the same way you have used the word "crossdreaming" without defining it, and it is a term I do not use. I can't repeat my whole blog (my terms, my beliefs about crossdressing, my presuppositions, my theology, etc.) in every post, you know?

I know that people crossdress for dozens of different reasons or more, and each individual may crossdress for dozens of different reasons they don't even fully understand. Envy is just one of many reasons I do not like crossdressing. If some people crossdress for other reasons besides envy, that's fine. They should comment on my post and talk about it, and help me to clarify and nuance my post.

It's true God can be righteously jealous, because he is wanting that which is his, that which we took from him, his glory. (although we can't technically take away God's glory, and technically God lacks nothing, which means God being jealous is an anthropomorphism to help us understand what we are doing when we worship other gods. God knows that those other gods don't exist, and that he isn't truly losing out on anything, so it is tough to compare his jealousy to our own).

To answer your question is no easy task, as you say. I grant you that that is a great question to think about! But then why not come to my blog and comment and ask me to answer that question? Why not ask some clarification questions about my views? That would be far more constructive than people assuming they know how I would answer that question (or calling me names....)

As to your question of the right to envy, I'd have to maybe hear your definition of "crossdreaming" first and your reasoning for why it's okay to envy in this case. But I think I have a general idea, so I'll give a few thoughts. And then you can clarify and question and respond.

I need to think more about this because it is a great question, but some beginning thoughts -
1. I think we could say that envy is sinful (and harmful in one's life), even if it is envy for something which we have a right to. For example, we all have a right to love and marry, but to live in envy of people who are married while we are not, is sinful and hurtful to our emotional wellbeing.
2. I think some of the things I mentioned in my post are things we have some proper right to desire. For example, I think it is okay for men to desire being able to be expressive and sensitive. But I would say the answer then would lie not in crossdressing, or envying women, but learning how to be expressive and sensitive as men. Thus not envying, but integrating those things into our identity as men.
3. I think some things are common sense that we don't have a right to envy them. If we are men, female bodies are obviously not ours by right. Hence, spending our time envying those bodies is not good, it is envying what is not ours. The only body we own is our own.

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Jack Molay said...

@Thorin,

If you have found peace with your crossdressing, I apologize.

I read your blog, and I did -- in good faith -- interpret it as a discussion on how to cope with strong crossdreaming urges.

The frequent reference to bible verses that may help you in your coping, led me to believe you were, actually, struggling. But maybe you are addressing others who have not manage to handle their fantasies yet instead.

I am a Christian myself, but is -- as you probably have notices -- positioned at the other end of the scale.

I believe in a loving God, not God the Lawmaker, and believe He has made me a crossdreamer for a reason. God loves variation, and we are part of that diversity.

I suspect this is something we will never agree on, so I am not sure there is any point in even discussing it. If we are to do that, we should probably do it over at your blog.

What is important here, though, is that your writing has now been used actively by a transsexual woman who is using any text she can get hold of to denigrate all transgender people that do not follow her ideal of what it means to be transsexual.

And she does this deliberately to hurt us, make us feel small, make us feel shame and guilt.

She has been banned from this forum for this very reason, but continue to comment, hoping apparently that some of this mud will stick eventually. I can see what she is doing, and she can no longer reach me, but for others this may actually work.

The fact that your writing is used in this way troubles me, to say the least.

joannaS said...

@Thorin

The envy argument you use is an interesting one but one which I have never experienced myself. I do not consider my condition rooted in envy but rather with an association with the feminine that goes back to as long as I can remember. I did not start dressing at 12 but more like 3 or 4 years old. I was doing so naturally and without any guilt or shame. That sham was instilled in me much later as I was told that little boys do not do these things. I then proceeded to accommodate my parents and never do dress again.

I am a devout Christian and yet have finally come to realize that God does not make junk and my behaviour is not rooted in sin because I am not hurting anyone. In fact I am a happier person now because I can allow myself the dignity of being myself and have found a new lease on life by doing so. The results have been nothing short of dramatic. I have a partner and children who do not see it yet know that I do it and love me just as much and I can now love them even more in return because I am happy with who I am.

If God wants me to stop crossdressing why did he put those feelings there in the first place. Because I can tell you that no one has tried harder to stop than I and I ended up with a stroke 5 years ago because of it.

So while I do appreciate your point of view and am glad that your formula works for you, the idea of associating crossdressing with sinning is not immediately obvious to me in the least. Thinking that way made me miserable for almost 50 years and I would never go back to that.

As far as our crackpot goes, she is just frustrated that this website hits home with some very relevant and frank discussion on truths she would rather not acknowledge. The fact that Jack draws an intelligent and well read audience is even more galling for her so she resorts to using your site and any other as as copy and paste fodder to inundate this place with anything that will degrade those who come here.

Its unfortunate that your site was the latest target.

joannaS said...

@Thorin

"For example, I think it is okay for men to desire being able to be expressive and sensitive. But I would say the answer then would lie not in crossdressing, or envying women, but learning how to be expressive and sensitive as men. Thus not envying, but integrating those things into our identity as men"

Part of the problem here is that truly dysphoric people (ie HBS types IV, V and VI) would argue that they are not crossdressing but merely reflecting who they are inside. If for example you fit into a type I or II you primarily identify as a male who enjoys crossdressing and is its perhaps more rooted in fun or vice. Even so I see nothing wrong with it if it does not run your life. So in this case you might be right to say that you can diminish or even eliminate your crossdressing in order to make your life more whole by incorporating those elements you might "envy" into more sensitive
male.

Types III through VI have a much stronger level of dysphoria ranging from a strong need to crossdress to outright transition. We do not know the cause of this condition but we know it exists and its supremely powerful. Why in the world would anyone ask for it? it is clear that it is not a whim nor an elective activity.

My own dysphoria places me in the type III or IV which makes me, according to the Benjamin scale, either a true transvestite or a borderline transsexual. Neither I cureable nor do they respond to psychotherapy so you left with 2 choices:

1) wallow in guilt, shame and self hatred for something you cannot change anyway
2) espouse who you are and live without fear and make the best of it knowing that you must live with this.

I have opted for latter.

If you are either a type I or II (which I have a strong suspicion you are) consider yourself fortunate as many others here are not.

Peace

Thorin25 said...

Thanks for the comments, Jack, Joanna, and Mitchell. I appreciate them. I think we are all more on the same page now. There are many things we could discuss that you mentioned that I could respond to, but we are going in many different directions, from envy, to living without crossdressing, to faith, to whether crossdressing is sinful or not, etc. I decided let's just leave the conversation here. If we want to further discuss any of those specific issues we should probably do so somewhere else besides this specific post of Jack's which is unrelated. I don't want to clutter this post up. I accept your apologies, and I apologize as well if I overreacted.

And just to repeat, I do not know who the person is who was quoting my blog, and I'm sorry that they seem to be pestering you. But whoever you are, I have nothing against you either, as I have only really seen your quoting of my blog and don't know what else you said and so I don't want to judge you. Who knows, maybe I would agree with you. My advice is to let the matter be though. When people don't want to keep talking, it is best to stop instead of pushing it.

In the future Jack, if people quote me, let me know. I'd be interested.

One of the lessons learned for me by this is that reading one blog post can give people a false impression of me, or at least a not full impression of me. I'm not sure how to fix that. Jack, I'm sure you've had similar issues. On the one hand, you can say, this post shows my beliefs. But on the other hand, you kinda have to say, to get my balanced view you have to read my whole blog (which is something we can't expect people realistically to do). And I don't want to continually repeat myself all the time either.

Mitchell, I'll do some more thinking about the differences between envy and jealousy. I was not familiar with the differences, at least consciously, until you raised this issue. This was interesting - http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wc/covetous-the-difference-between-jealousy-and-envy/ But even if we take it that these words are different, I don't think jealousy would make sense to the things I was talking about in my post. Envy is the only word that would make sense. I'm not talking about things that are our own, I'm referring to our desire for things that are not our own, which would be envy, not jealousy. If you want to continue the conversation about this post, feel free to comment under my post. http://healingcd.wordpress.com/2012/01/07/crossdressing-is-about-envy/



Thorin25 said...
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Thorin25 said...

Sorry one more quick comment. Please note that my whole post on envy was not shared here. Not sure if what was left out really would help to change your opinions at all, but only a portion of my post was quoted.

A. Quiet Voice said...
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Thorin25 said...

A-quiet-voice, I see that you were trying to respond to me. Feel free to come by my blog and talk. I'd love to talk more with you! I can't really talk to you here, with your comments being deleted. Again, I think it would be wise to stop trying when they obviously don't want to hear from you. Even if you are right, it's best to only talk to those who want to listen, instead of trying to force people to listen. Trying to force people isn't really helpful or loving. Even Jesus told his disciples to move on from people who wouldn't listen.

Jack Molay said...

@Thorin

I do not think you understand who you are inviting into your home. This one is nothing like Jesus, I am afraid. Be very, very careful!

joannaS said...

@jack

"I do not think you understand who you are inviting into your home"

an understatement if there ever was one. But I am sure he won't mind....

joannaS said...

@Thorin

" Again, I think it would be wise to stop trying when they obviously don't want to hear from you. Even if you are right, it's best to only talk to those who want to listen, instead of trying to force people to listen."

You are indeed a very wise man whose advice will unfortunately not be heeded...

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joannaS said...

@Thorin

I don't think you understand: its the non repentant crossdressers and crossdreamers she's after so you'll be fine. At least you'll be spared the flurry of toxic postings.

If you do follow this blog and read the comments you will by now understand why Jack is a target.

Be well...

Lindsay said...

In her desperate desires for someone to support her cause, it appears that she has been born again. I guess we're in for a flood of religious hogwash.

@Thorin, be very careful around AQV. She will try to twist your words to fit her personal needs. And when you try to straighten it out she will accuse you of the most awful things. She has done that to almost almost everyone here. As you've already seen she took part of your envy essay out of context to try to further her cause here.

Lindsay

A. Quiet Voice said...
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Jack Molay said...

New video on Cassidy here!