May 23, 2013

Some good news from the DSM and the Gender Dysphoria working group

There is some cause for transgender celebration
 in the DSM (photos.com)
The male to female crossdressers and crossdreamers who feel distress from their condition are still to be considered mentally ill by American psychiatry. That is the bad news from the new edition of the DSM-5, The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

There is some really good news to be found in there as well, though.

The Gender Dysphoria working group has clearly had wiser leadership than the paraphilia working party of Ray Blanchard.

First: gender dysphoria is no longer called a "disorder". It is no longer considered a mental illness (although it is still included in a manual of mental illnesses).

Secondly: they refuse to give in to the notion that there are two distinct types of transsexuals, where one is perverted and the other is not.

Being -- or having been -- a crossdreamer does not disqualify you from being recognized as transsexual.

I have gotten hold of the "Gender Dysphoria" chapter and this is what it says about crossdreamers (in the text referred to as "an individual with transvestic disorder"):

"An individual with transvestic disorder who has also clinically significant gender dysphoria can be given both diagnoses. In many cases of  late-onset gender dysphoria in gynephilic natal males, transvestic behavior with sexual excitement is a precursor."

It is as if the Gender Dysphoria group has looked at all the pain the paraphilia subworkinggroup will cause transsexuals through their Transvestic Disorder text and decided to do something about it.


What the Gender Dysphoria texts says is basically what I have said for a long time: Crossdreamer fantasies are symptoms of an underlying gender variance. In some crossdreamers this condition is strong enough to cause gender dysphoria (i.e. distress caused by a mismatch between biological sex and sex/gender identity).

This is important, because it makes it harder for Blanchard-supporters, militant HBS classic transsexuals and radical feminists to use the DSM to stigmatize transsexual crossdreamers.

This does not mean that everything is well, though: MTF transsexual women, who have experienced crossdreamer fantasies, will have to live with the fact that according to one section of the DSM they are sexual perverts, while according to another they are not.

Still,  they may at least use the Gender Dysphoria chapter for what's it is worth.

Non-transsexual transgender are not protected

Non-transsexual MTF crossdreamers do not have this protection,. Paradoxically, you have to transition to get to the good side of the DSM.

This means that there remains a lot of work to do for those who want to see crossdressers, crossdreamers and girfags generally accepted.

Late-onset

I am still more than a little frustrated by the use of the term "late-onset transsexual" in the gender dysphoria chapter, as it reflects the idea that all gynephilic (woman-loving) transsexuals transition late.

This probably used to be true, as most of these trans women tried hard to adapt to a "manly" life in order to find love with a woman. Lately, however, we have seen more and more transsexual crossdreamers transition early.

Not only are the general attitudes towards sex and gender changing in parts of the world. The Internet has also given them a support system that helps them understand themselves at an earlier age.

The early-onset/late-onset binary was an artifact caused by the cultural context. The androphilic trans women could find support and acceptance in the gay community. The gynephilic ones could not.

51 comments:

Rayka Arian said...

congratulations!

Senrub said...

My head is spinning from all the spin. It is obvious to me that the inmates are now clearly in charge of the asylum.

I think Jack should be nominated to replace Jay Carney as head spin-master for the US president.

joanna Santos said...

Very true what you say about increasing number of woman loving transsexuals transitioning earlier. In my time we could never imagine doing such a thing but with more public awareness and acceotance we are seeing this important change. Shows how little the DSM is based on good science.

Sean said...

Well at least there is some good news on this topic. Its good to see that we crossdreamers are getting more and more acceptance.

Jack Molay said...

@Sean

I think this is part of a general cultural trend where people are starting to accept more diversity in the real of sex and sexuality.

"Fifty Shades of Grey" was not great literature, but it is hard to argue that all women are pure and asexual when your mother reads S&M porn.

The stigmatization of crossdreamers have been based on a model where sexuality is completely decoupled from sex (identity). It seems people are starting to see that these are much more complex processes.

Senrub said...

Jack. At the risk of being again banned, (or almost banned), I must again point out that your reaching for connection is again beyond mind-boggling.

Who, pray tell, is arguing that, "all women are pure and asexual when your mother reads S&M porn"?

I did not now that your mom was into SM porn. When did you discover that? Prowling about in her panty drawer? And why does that mean that everybody's mother reads SM porn? I can assure you that mine most certainly does not.

And what does your mother reading porn got to do with men playing dress-up, (cross-dressing), or erotic feminization fantasies, ("cross-dreaming")???

Jack Molay said...

@Senrub

"I did not now that your mom was into SM porn. When did you discover that? Prowling about in her panty drawer?"

This is what always happens with members of the HBS-tribe. Wait long enough and their true nature appears.

By the way: I am not a crossdresser. I thought you should know.

joanna Santos said...

Men playing dress up?? Wow that's brilliant. What pray tell are you doing on this site since you clearly don't know of what you speak. Clearly you are not gender disphoric but you should try it on for size before making ignorant comments.,,,

Jack Molay said...

Just to inform you that Senrub has been permanently banned from this blog.

It is now clear that she is not here to have a real discussion,. Her agenda is to destroy, not to build or help.

It is also clear that she feels nothing for contempt for crossdreamers and crossdressers.

That is simply unacceptable.

joanna Santos said...

Thank you Jack.

Lindsay said...

Thanks Jack.

I think she's been banned here before just under a different alias. She'll be back.

I wonder what makes the HBS/classic transsexual so bitter towards us. Two of the traits that most (but not all) women possess is sympathy and empathy. But not them. We must remind them of bad times in their past. But trying to find out what drives them is like squeezing water from a rock. When you try to ask them questions about themselves they take it as a personal attack.

Oh well, c'est la vie.

Lindsay

Senrub said...
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Jack Molay said...

@Lindsay

It is precisely the fact that we have so much in common that make us a threat.

At a very early age children start noticing gender differences and the very strict expectations that follow. Until recently, your possibility to get the love and respect of those closest to you depended on you following those rules.

Most of the HBSers and militant classic transsexuals belong to generations where this was even stricter than now.

In the "Mad Men" 1960's you didn't have a chance of getting surgery if you told the gate keepers that you had experienced erotic TG fantasies.

The transsexual women soon learned to live up to every sexist stereotype the system threw at them, including the one of the perfect asexual or androphilic transsexual.

Notice that even Harry Benjamin, who I admire immensely, believed his types IV, V and VI (traditional transsexuals) to have a low libido, (with a possible exception of type VI, which may have desired men "when young"). This is a reflection of the woman ideals of the time.

Most transsexual women of the time did not join the HBS-crowd. They knew better than stabbing other transgender people in the back. I have never heard of young trans women today who support their ideas.

This leaves the few ones that internalized society's contempt for "sisses" and "transvestites", i.e. those for whom being transgender led to no real insight into the suppressive nature of culture.

The fact that most of them are gynephilic or bisexual and that many of them were married when living as men, gives their game away.

Most of them have been crossdreamers, and have now painted themselves into a corner. They have to get rid of us to find peace.

They all represent genuine human tragedies, and we should feel sorry for them. Still, what they are doing now, trolling the web in search of crossdressers, crossdreamers and transsexuals that refuse to live up to their ideals is abhorrent.

They are a dying breed, though. A couple of years ago there was a large number of CT hate blogs out there. Now there is only one left, to my knowledge. Their trolling has also abated, probably a reflection of dwindling support.

Sidenote: Note that Benjamin's type VI may "have been married and have children using fantasies in intercourse." The perfect trans woman had been a crossdreamer! So why they use Benjamin as a prophet is beyond me ;)

Senrub said...
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Senrub said...
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joanna Santos said...

Wow that anger is very telling. I am always suspicious of people who spout such vitriol. No one here is claiming to be a true transexual but transgender or disphoric people who have had since earliest memory, gender confusion. I would have given anything to eradicate it and now at 50 I don't need an obnoxious blowhard militant transsexual to set up some sort of hierarchical bullshit. The fact is that all of us (you included senrub) suffer from an illness which makes you think you need to emulate or become the other gender. Having your genitals switched over and taking hormones does not make you a woman (as any simple genetic test will prove) but only a facsimile of one. Save your anger for some other cause and respect others please....

Senrub said...
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Lindsay said...

I'm with Jack. The HBSer's are dinosaurs who are rapidly going extinct. They are seeing their world destroyed. Blanchard, Bailey and Lawrence and quickly falling into disfavor, the DSM no longer supports their view and if they'd take the time to read Benjamin's paper they would see that he doesn't support them either. They are stuck back in the false, June Cleaver world of the 1950's and not in the present. The HBSer's need to wake up to the reality of the present. Real women don't have to be married to men. They can be married to other women now. They can be single parents. And transsexual MTF's being mentally real women are the same.

For some reason, one particular HBSer, last time she was here she was called A Quiet Voice, seems to think this is a transsexual site. What it really is is a crossdreamer site. It's not trying to be a transsexual site, some transsexuals do frequent it as a lot, if not most TS's have crossdreamed at one time. But they are probably outnumbered by crossdreamers, crossdressers and other transgendered here. It's a place for crossdreamers to figure stuff out. To learn and to trade ideas. We don't need HBSer's coming here and telling us that most of us aren't TS when we already know that.

The HBSer's have my pity. But not my respect.

Lindsay

Senrub said...
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Lindsay said...

@sensrub

Thanks for taking the bait and helping to make my point. You are so predictable. I haven't laughed so hard in a long time. See ya in a year!

Lindsay

Senrub said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Jack Molay said...

All comments of Senrub will remain removed until Senrub stops commenting. I will then reinstate her pre-ban comments.

joanna Santos said...

Lindsay, A Quiet Voice regularly comments on my blog and she really does mean well. We don't agree on everything but she's helping me through some of my questioning and she stays respectful. This other gal has a bee in her bonnet for some unexplained reason.......

Senrub said...
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Senrub said...
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joanna Santos said...

This is a really sad and bitter person. I do honestly feel sorry that you hold so much hatred in you...but if it makes you feel better to think of me as a man in a dress then be my guest. Does not phase me in the least since I've been through much worse in my life.

Lindsay said...

@Jack,

I just noticed that if I click on the "post a comment" button, the page that comes up still has the deleted comments on it (at least for today's deletions) even though they show up as deleted on the blog post itself. You must have to do an extra step to clear them from the post a comment page. Also, it looks like if a commenter wanted to limit their comments to about 150 characters they show up in the "recent comments" area for a while after they are deleted.

Lindsay

Jack Molay said...

@Linday

Unfortunately there is no ban commenter feature on Blogger. You have to delete each comment manually. I will do, of course, but I am also using a hack that makes comments made by banned readers invisible on regular blog pages.

In the meantime it is interesting to see that Senrub now has given up every pretense of being a friendly fact finding discussion partner. The comments I am deleting now are just transphobic and hateful.

Senrub said...

Again, not true. As your readers well know, all I have done is question your stilted and convoluted twisting of simple facts, and 'call out' some of the more absurd assertions made by some of your fiercest supporters such as...men married to women are be "the same as" women married to men. Pul-eeese.

My calling that out is not transphobic, it is simple fact. You and your pals insisting that such a similarity exists is a gross insult to the intelligence of your readers.

All you insults, and all your hateful language do, is to highlight your frustration at not being able to function in society as the outliers that you yourselves choose to be.

Yes. I represent the thinking of the majority. we are tolerant of differences, but we find your demands and bully tactics repulsive. I am not "trans" phobic. I just dislike being bullied, and tend to be somewhat resistive to disingenuous people who lie and twist the truth just to "prove" that they are right.

Senrub said...
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joanna Santos said...

We are happy just the way we are senrub aren't you? When a person spews venom its a sign that they have a thorn in my psyche. This is crossdreamers site and people acknowledge that. You are a transitioned woman and your point exactly is what? Why don't you get a life and go preach to your HBS crowd. This man in a dress is happy just the way he is. Have a nice day...

Senrub said...
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Sam Z said...

Ok as a male-identified crossdreamer who thinks of my AG as a kink, im happy as i am. But comparing myself to crossdreamers with dysphoria, i can assure you, Senrub, no 'normal' guy feels alienation or dysphoria from their body, so we can exclude the theory about people like Lindsay, Joanna or Jack being just a guy with a kink. Ive grown up feeling good about my sex unlike some of these people.
If you assume crossdreamers are regular men, i also could wonder why you didnt accept yourself as just a very feminine gay man? Because that might as well be true....However i agree most transwomen are heterosexual, but you've propably just been raised under the impression that there are no lesbian or bi- transwomen.. the more i try to understand how these ppl feel, the more i have come to debunk the autogynephilia theory..

Senrub said...
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Sam Z said...

Senrub,

I agree, i should read Benjamins work to see what the fuzz is about because i base my views solely on my and others experiences..

Hmm.. in a comment (now removed) you told Lindsay to "enjoy her kink" as a male? Either you're denying it or i might have misread it... either or, moving on...

Ofcourse i am aware of the difference between sexual identity and orientation, no disagreement here.. but these people in question, i assume, have a different sexual identity whereas i have not, and i cant argue whether they're wrong or not since i can't empathize with their experiences - i believe them.
I should note that they aren't autosexual so their inner sense of sexual identity is not a "target location error" or a misdirected sexual orientation. I should also note, unlike myself, their sense of self as females go way further than my sense of AG as just a kink in my otherwise happy life.

To make this easier, could you list bulletpoints to why you think you differ from them?

Senrub said...
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Senrub said...
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Senrub said...
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joanna Santos said...

Senrub to follow up with what sam is saying, I have been gender disphoric my entire life. For me AGP theory is insulting because it presumes that I suffer from target location error and I am therefore a paraphilic wanker. So my entire life experience is reduced to a fetish which does not ring a bell at all with my personal experience. I have nothing to prove or apologize for and I don't even understand what the argument here is all about. You are andtophilic, transitioned early and married a man? Well bully for you! The fact that I married a woman and fathered children does'nt make me less of a gender disphoric or paint me automatically as a man in a dress. But if it makes you more secure to think of me that way then please go ahead. For the record I am a highly educated and highly functioning professional with no other issues other than gender related so I am not fooling myself nor am I delusional.

Senrub said...
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Senrub said...
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joanna Santos said...

I have already read benjamin and understand that I fit into this model. Unfortunately that does not make things any easier for me since I am dealing with the implications of that reality and how I proceed from here on in....

Senrub said...
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joanna Santos said...

That is my life almost exactly I'm afraid to say...

Senrub said...
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joanna Santos said...

It does"nt. I have discredited blanchard and company and in that sense jack and I are allies. He does not crossdress and our ecperiences are not perfectly aligned but I enjoy the critical thinking of this site which has mostly been aimed at debunking target error theories which had me confused for a few years. I understand myself to be a very advanced disphoric and remember wanting to be a girl when little. I am now facing a tough journey at 50 of something I tried to disown and drown because I thought I wasn't allowed to feel the way I did

Lindsay said...

@Joanna,

"That is my life almost exactly I'm afraid to say..."

If you haven't read it you should read the table from Benjamin's paper, page 19:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=harry%20benjamin&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&ved=0CCkQFjAAOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fharrybenjaminsyndrome-not-transsexual.com%2F&ei=_syqUbbOLsWviAK__oDwBQ&usg=AFQjCNFeMUSlTNg5PS6zQj4GqCszn-gk-A&bvm=bv.47244034,d.cGE

It's also important not to fixate on the table, but to read the accompanying text.

I think you'd find that there are not huge differences between the types. You might say the same thing about your life for any of them. Benjamin considered types 4 through 6 to be transsexual and he stresses that there is overlap between the types. He even says this about type 6's "May have been married and have children, by using fantasies in intercourse." It seems like some individuals want to shove all crossdreamers in type 4, while it seems clear to me that crossdreaming is spread throughout all types. But I also think that crossdreaming is not a trait of all of us.

Here's some other quotes from his paper (I'm trying to be as complete as possible so the meanings aren't taken out of context):

"Coming back to the differences between transvestism and transsexualism., another simpler and more unifying concept and a corresponding definition may have to be considered. That is, that transvestites with their more or less pronounced sex and gender indecision may actually all be transsexuals, but in varying degrees of intensity."

"If these attempts to define and classify the transvestite and the transsexual appear vague and unsatisfactory, it is because a sharp and scientific separation of the two syndromes is not possible."

"The Sex Orientation Scale (S.O.S.) likewise lists seven categories or types (not necessarily stages), the zero, however, separately, as it would apply to any person of normal sex and gender orientation for whom ideas of "dressing" or sex change are completely foreign and definitely unpleasant, whether that person is hetero-, bi-, or homosexual. It must be emphasized again that the remaining six types are not and never can be sharply separated. The clinical pictures are approximations, schematized and idealized, so that the TV and TS who may look for himself among the types will find his own picture usually in between two recorded categories, his principal characteristics listed in both adjoining columns."

Lindsay



joanna Santos said...

Thanks for that lindsay. In the end no amount of literature will be a substitute for my own judgement of how I proceed with my life. I have decided to do anything but transition so if this means living part time then this is how I shall proceed. I appreciate very much your feedback...

Senrub said...
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Lindsay said...

Sorry about the broken link. It was suppose to go to google docs. Here's a better link:

http://tgmeds.org.uk/downs/phenomenon.pdf

Senrub said...
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