October 8, 2010

Girls who will be boys; on F2M crossdreamers, autoandrophiliacs and girlfags

The myth of the non-existent female to male crossdreamer is crumbling. It turns out that women can be gender confused as well, without being "homosexual" in any traditional sense of the world.

(Warning! This post includes explicit language that some may find offensive.)

One sign is the fact that "autandrophilia" (sexually aroused by thought or image of self as male) now has been included in the DSM-V proposal, another is the fact that an increasing number of female to male crossdreamers are embracing the "girlfag" concept.

Now, girlfag is not my term. I prefer the term crossdreamer, as you may know. But the fact that there are female-bodied persons out there that embrace the term is interesting and deserves a discussion.

The Wikipedia defines "girlfag" as "a biologically female individual who feels a strong romantic or erotic attraction towards gay males or male bisexuals or their milieu."

The Urban dictionary has several definitions, one of them being:

"A woman who is very attracted to gay/bi/trans men. She may (or may not) also feel she is (fully or partly) a 'gay man in a woman's body'. Girlfags identify primarily as queer, and are often attracted to more types of people than just gay/bi/trans men."

The opposite of a girlfag is a guydyke (male lesbian).

The Girlfag Community

When you take a look at the online Girlfag community, you will soon see that we are often (but not always) talking about girls that want to be like dominant boys in bed, regardless of the sexual orientation of the male partner.

Attracted to gay or feminine men

A few quotes:

"I'm yet another noob to the group who just found the wikipedia article on girlfags and guydykes, and was pleasantly surprised to find there's actually a term for this!! for so long I've struggled with trying to explain my sexuality and thinking I'm a completely and utter weirdo for only ever being sexually attracted to gay men, or super effeminate straight men (if only I could find more of those!)

"... manly guys do absolutely nothing for me, it's so sad because it totally limits me, especially since coming around to the conclusion that I'm more or less straight, after a couple of years of identifying as bisexual, and countless years before that of complete confusion about the whole orientation thing."

The feeling of confusion due to a lack of relevant terms is a concurrent theme in these posts. The traditional terminology does not fit.

A gay man trapped in a woman's body

Here's one girlfag talking:

"I found this community the night before last through the Wikipedia article on girlfags and guydykes after I typed in 'a gay man trapped in a woman's body' on Google and searching around a bit, after having just uttered that combination of words in an earlier conversation and finally wanting to come to terms with what I meant by that.

"This is an expression I've used on many an occasion when getting into a discussion about sexuality with friends to describe myself because it's the only seemingly-accurate descriptor that would pop into my mind, though it has often been met with varying degrees of puzzlement."

Being the dominant one

Most of these women cannot be mistaken for lesbians, as they are clearly attracted to men. Still, some of them argue that they are attracted specifically to gay men.

"I'm a 48-year-old cis-female who has always thought of herself as perfectly traditional in her sexual preferences. My relationships have always been with men who identified themselves as straight, and it was natural for me to regard my lifelong attraction to gay men as a slight quirk of my artistic personality: after all, they're MEN, right? Even the fabulous turn-on of having a straight lover with a penchant for receiving anal sex failed to expand my horizons: what I though I was enjoying was the new experience of being dominant in bed."

Crossdressing tomboy

Some girlfags grew up as tomboys:

"I came out as bi when I was 15, but was always a very masculine tomboy. I was even transgender as a toddler--I dressed as a boy for an entire year, and even had my parents call me a made-up male name. I have struggled to reconcile my feminine side with my masculine side for my entire life, and my love of men, yaoi [Japanese term for female oriented fiction focusing on male gay relationships] and male homosexuality with my own female gender and my innate feeling that I was not straight...

It is interesting to note that she finds gay male erotica fascinating. The reason is, of course, that she identifies as a gay man in her fantasies.

"When I came to college, I joined a queer sorority, and did not realize what the experience was missing until just recently, when I realized that I'm a girlfag, and quite possibly transgender. While I'm not really thinking of transition or surgery, or even that such concepts apply to me, I'm happy to know that many more people exist who feel similarly....I am in a long term, extremely committed relationship with a very feminine straight (dare I say metro) man...

I have often noted that it must be easier for F2M crossdressers to live out their fantasies, as they can get away with dressing as men. This can still be a problem, though, as this kind of dressing might not be accepted by parents during childhood. This girfag notes:

"I am also struggling to undo the stigma against wearing men's clothes that has been instilled in me since childhood. I love men's clothes and feel extremely confident in them."


In love with a transwoman

It seems girlfags are attracted to feminine, submissive, men -- which should not come as a surprise given a wish to be the dominant man. This may lead to interesting twists, though, as the man in question may actually be a transwoman.

"The newest boy took my confidence. I thought I was gonna end up with him.... He's a bit strange though because he loves sailor moon. In fact, I think he'd like to be her. He was her for halloween 2007! And if he had his way he'd dress like her everyday. Yup, he's a tranny. I am not sure what 'kind'. He was born a man and still has male parts but he has expressed wanting to BE a female...FEELING like a female INSIDE. So I guess he's not a transvestite. They are usually straight and are satisfied with just dressing like the other sex. Right?

"Well he likes guys a lot. So much so that I am not sure if he likes girls, really. But he is the best love maker I have encountered. (Maybe because we did have a special bond and we really worked at it...who knows) SO if I had to call him anything based on what he has told me and what I observe I guess I'd call him a Bi T-girl??? The terms are misused so often I'm sorry I don't really know how to explain it. But I'm trying to! I want the situation to be clear."

Raven Kaldera

Raven Kaldera reports on a large number of F2M crossdreamers in his article on female TVs . TV stands for transvestites. I do no like this use of words like "fetish" and "transvestite", but his message is interesting enough.

He quotes "Rob" and "Michelle", F2M crossdreamers, on the use of strap-ons:

"When I put it on, it's my cock," says Rob. "I masturbate with it - I'm lucky in that I can come from the friction - and I have sex with it. I've trained myself to transpose the sensation in my head - the rhythmic pressure of the harness against my clit becoming the friction of my cock against my hand or someone's enclosing flesh - and when it's on me, I can forget about the rest of my body."

Michelle concurs

"Since my strap-on is double-headed, I can usually make myself cum by jerking it off, as if I were a man, and as if it were my own. I love for a man to wear lingerie; it makes it feel more fulfilling to my role. He is the woman, I'm the man. Also, 'taking' a man, or simply just caressing him in a more dominant position, makes me feel more masculine. And nothing makes me feel more like a man than to have him suck on my strap-on."

You can't get more explicit than this.

Kaldera says that a large number of female crossdreamers live in denial, and that many lesbians deny their existence, simply because  women are not supposed to have such feelings. Indeed, he finds the same arguments here as I have found in the M2F transgender debate. There are even F2M transmen who argue that F2M crossdreamers should not be allowed to transition if they get turned on by imagining themselves as men!

"The background for this argument is," Kaldera says, "fifty years of assumptions by sexual researchers that women don't have the kind of nasty, humiliating, ridiculous-looking sexual fetishes that men do."

He continues:

"Getting a charge from tottering around in high heels or lacy panties is something that comes from too much testosterone, and if a woman puts on high heels or picks up a riding crop or straps on a dildo, she's doing it to please her partner."

But many women, lesbians as well as F2M crossdreamers, do get turned on by the idea of having a man's body. It cannot be denied.

Almost homosexual

I have found one scientific study on girlfags. It is written by the German researcher Uli Meyer: "Almost homosexual". She also uses the term "transfag", which refers to a F2M transman who is attracted to men.

The link above leads to a German version, but I found the following English abstract:

"This text attempts to describe the hitherto indescribable [sic] in four parts:

Pt. 1 questions common ideas about gender and sexuality as markers of a fixed identity and notes their failure when it comes to describing girlfags and transfags.

Pt. lists some recurring experiences in the lives of girlfags and transfags, such as: invisibility, illegibility, misunderstanding, fall out, and the "almost".

Pt. 3 follows the time honoured tradition of name dropping, and, in applying the criteria we have elaborated in Pts. 1+2, "outs" several famous girlfags/transfags, i.e. George Sand, Sarah Grand, Carrington, Eve K. Sedgewick; furthermore the authors and readers of gay/transgender manga and slash.

Image: Girlfag logo designed by mooglefan ->

Pt. 4 reports an emergence from non-existence since the 1980s, instancing Lou Sullivan, Del La Grace Volcano, and the GirlFag online group.

Plus: A short excurse on the depiction of girlfags/transfags in popular culture, such as the Shanghai Opera "The Butterfly Lovers", "Yentl", "Victor/Victoria" und [sic] the Hong Kong films "He's the Woman, she's the man" and "Who's the Woman, who's the Man?""

Between categories

My German is very rusty, but from what I see, she makes several interesting points, one being that the girlfag falls between all types of chairs: for trans culture she is not man enough, not woman enough, not gay enough, not trans enough. Nor does she have the symbols the M2F crossdresser has available to express her identity.

Crossdressing does not have the effect it has with M2F crossdreamers, as women may use male clothes without outing themselves. This means that they are read and understood as "normal" ciswomen. They are invisible, which is one good explanation for why there is so little research on them.

Meyer does name a few well known transfag artists and thinkers, though, including Lady Caroline Lamb, George Sand, Sarah Grand, Carrington, Carson McCullers and more. She also mentions Lou Sullivan, the founder of FTM International, an international organisation of tranmen, as coming out as a gay man.

Yahoo poll

Furthermore, she refers to a study of the Yahoo girlfag group.

115 of the members of this group identified as girlfags. Of these 29 called themselves heterosexual, 80 bisexual, 3 lesbians, 48 genderqueer, and 33 as not genderqueer.
  • 71 considered themselves gay men in a woman's body, 29 did not.
  • 94 did associate themselves with the gay community, 29 did not.
  • 99 watched gay porn, 8 did not.
  • 105 would like to have a threesome with gay/bisexual men, 10 would not.
  • 105 were romantically attracted to bisexual and gay men, 7 were not.
  • 66 were attracted to other girlfags, 31 were not.
  • 66 felt affinity with other transpeople, 33 did not.
  • 51 lived openly as transfags.
Confused? Well, the poll clearly reflects a lack of clarity both as regards terminology and what it means to be a girlfag. This is to be expected when a group try to find its identity in this way.

But surely, these are exceptions to the rule, right?

Whenever I bring up the existence of F2M crossdreamers, the most common argument is that a few examples like this do not amount to anything. Women are different from men - read: only men can be perverts. This is clearly the position of Ray Blanchard who thinks that all F2M transmen are what he calls "homosexual" (meaning gynephilic).

To me the F2M crossdreamers are the black swans of transgender research. Even if there should turn out to be fewer of them than of M2F crossdreamers, their very existence proves that the general idea that only men can be sexually aroused of the idea of having the body of the opposite sex is wrong. That means that crossdreaming and crossdressing cannot be understood as the result of the peculiarities of the male psyche.

Kaldera again:

"Personally, I think that the image of women as being the keepers of moral purity (which generally always means that they are not allowed to be sexual, or at least not sexual to the degree and in the ways that men are) has got to go. First of all, it's not accurate, given the growing number of female-bodied people who are coming out of the closet about how wet they get over playing with male personas in bed. To deny that this is part of the female sexual demographic, even if it's a minority part, is to devalue and invalidate their experience. It's not worth doing just so that certain other women can feel morally superior to the men that they currently happen to be berating for being disgusting perverts."

My guess is that there are as many female crossdreamers as there are male ones. To me the obvious question is not: "Tell us how there can be any F2M crossdreamers!" The question that has to be asked is this one: "Given the heterogeneity of mankind, how can you explain that gender variety gives birth to crossdreamers on the biological male side, but not on the female side?"

Given that neither the F2M crossdreamers nor the researchers have the language needed to describe their experiences, they have become invisible. But when they do gain control over their own narrative, they will become visible.


The May Trans Tagung conference in M√ľnchen had a separate session on girlfags.

28 comments:

  1. Ok I am confused now.

    As I understand it there are men that want to be the girl in bed and there are women that want to be the man in bed. So why the heck don't we all get together and start dating!

    Well that's settles it then...Jack you should start a F2M & M2F dating service.

    Where can I sign up?

    ReplyDelete
  2. Hi Jack,

    I just want to say I've been enjoying your blog and I hope you can keep it going. It's given me a lot to think about and plenty of insight. This part of my life is actually starting to make some sense. So, thanks!

    Before I married my current wife, I had a girlfriend who had many of the “girlfag” characteristics described in this post. She just called herself a bisexual. She absolutely loved gay/bi porn and also shemale porn to some extent. She preferred gay porn, though, because she liked her guys to appear masculine. For that reason, I never crossdressed when I was with her but I still had plenty of opportunities to satisfy my female and submissive urges.

    She thoroughly enjoyed using her strap-on and could orgasm with it by getting it in the right position. On the other hand, she claimed that vaginal sex did little for her and she preferred either oral sex or to be taken anally while she masturbated to orgasm. Our sex life was often like two guys going at it or at other times like two girls. Whenever we did something vanilla we would joke about how 'kinky' it seemed.

    She was also attracted to a certain kind of woman. Although my girlfriend always maintained a very feminine look for herself, she preferred what I would call 'plain' athletic looking women who were not particularly feminine but who were not 'butch' either. In the fantasies she described to me, she was always topping the other girl with her strap-on, bondage, and humiliation. Too bad I never got to witness it, lol. I'm pretty sure that she would identify as female. But, if you asked her if she would like to trade her vagina for a penis, she would jump at the chance.

    My wife has also expressed to me many times that she fantasizes about having a penis and using it on me. She also enjoys using her strap-on. Unlike my ex-girlfriend, my wife is always the dominant one sexually and likes it when I crossdress and play the submissive girl. She wouldn't call herself bisexual though, since she isn't attracted to real females. I'm pretty sure that she wouldn't call herself a 'gay male trapped in a woman's body' either. However, her sexual history is mostly littered with effeminate and submissive male partners and most of her male friends have been gay. This was never her intention, it's just what she's attracted to unconsciously. I had to be the one to point out that her first boyfriend was almost certainly a crossdresser at the minimum. She met him at a Halloween party where he was dressed convincingly as a girl and then for a first date, he took her to the Rocky Horror Picture Show. That relationship didn't work out because he was 'clingy.' Hello! On the other hand, her first marriage was strictly vanilla but she describes it as awful. Our sexual relationship is more lesbian-like where she is a butch and I'm a femme.

    I think that women fantasizing about having a penis are a lot more common than is admitted. And not all of them could be classified as girlfags or transmen. To paraphrase Freud, sometimes a 'chick with a dick' is just a 'chick with a dick.' As for myself, I like being the submissive one and I like taking the female role in sex. I also like my male anatomy. If I could have a vagina, I'd still want my penis in place of a clitoris. I could probably do without the other “baggage,” though. I sometimes think of myself as a 'gay man trapped in the mind of a male heterosexual' and sometimes as a 'lesbian trapped in a man's body.' Neither really fits though, maybe I'm just a 'chick with a dick,' too.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Hi Jack,

    I just want to say I've been enjoying your blog and I hope you can keep it going. It's given me a lot to think about and plenty of insight. This part of my life is actually starting to make some sense. So, thanks!

    Before I married my current wife, I had a girlfriend who had many of the “girlfag” characteristics described in this post. She just called herself a bisexual. She absolutely loved gay/bi porn and also shemale porn to some extent. She preferred gay porn, though, because she liked her guys to appear masculine. For that reason, I never crossdressed when I was with her but I still had plenty of opportunities to satisfy my female and submissive urges.

    She thoroughly enjoyed using her strap-on and could orgasm with it by getting it in the right position. On the other hand, she claimed that vaginal sex did little for her and she preferred either oral sex or to be taken anally while she masturbated to orgasm. Our sex life was often like two guys going at it or at other times like two girls. Whenever we did something vanilla we would joke about how 'kinky' it seemed.

    She was also attracted to a certain kind of woman. Although my girlfriend always maintained a very feminine look for herself, she preferred what I would call 'plain' athletic looking women who were not particularly feminine but who were not 'butch' either. In the fantasies she described to me, she was always topping the other girl with her strap-on, bondage, and humiliation. Too bad I never got to witness it, lol. I'm pretty sure that she would identify as female. But, if you asked her if she would like to trade her vagina for a penis, she would jump at the chance.

    My wife has also expressed to me many times that she fantasizes about having a penis and using it on me. She also enjoys using her strap-on. Unlike my ex-girlfriend, my wife is always the dominant one sexually and likes it when I crossdress and play the submissive girl. She wouldn't call herself bisexual though, since she isn't attracted to real females. I'm pretty sure that she wouldn't call herself a 'gay male trapped in a woman's body' either. However, her sexual history is mostly littered with effeminate and submissive male partners and most of her male friends have been gay. This was never her intention, it's just what she's attracted to unconsciously. I had to be the one to point out that her first boyfriend was almost certainly a crossdresser at the minimum. She met him at a Halloween party where he was dressed convincingly as a girl and then for a first date, he took her to the Rocky Horror Picture Show. That relationship didn't work out because he was 'clingy.' Hello! On the other hand, her first marriage was strictly vanilla but she describes it as awful. Our sexual relationship is more lesbian-like where she is a butch and I'm a femme.

    I think that women fantasizing about having a penis are a lot more common than is admitted. And not all of them could be classified as girlfags or transmen. To paraphrase Freud, sometimes a 'chick with a dick' is just a 'chick with a dick.' As for myself, I like being the submissive one and I like taking the female role in sex. I also like my male anatomy. If I could have a vagina, I'd still want my penis in place of a clitoris. I could probably do without the other “baggage,” though. I sometimes think of myself as a 'gay man trapped in the mind of a male heterosexual' and sometimes as a 'lesbian trapped in a man's body.' Neither really fits though, maybe I'm just a 'chick with a dick,' too.

    ReplyDelete
  4. @Stevie

    Your post was caught by the spam filter. Sorry about that!

    That is one very interesting story, and one that confirms what I have been trying to say.

    Crossdreaming, male to female or female to male, is much more common than even we have a tendency of believing. But the lack of words and acceptance has made us close to invisible.

    ReplyDelete
  5. I think that women whose main fantasy is to fuck a transvestite are very very rare.

    May be quite a few think about how it is to have a penis and wwould like to try once. But doing it all the time, I doubt.

    You must probably go in some subculture like feminist activism or BDSM to find them.

    Jack, does you woman use a dildo on you ?

    Seems like many women don't really have fantasies or are excited more by having normal sex in an original place or with a stranger than by having some original and daring sex.

    Many women have a lack of sex drive as they seem to be more narcissic than attraced by men.

    Lack of sex drive for the woman is the main issue in long term couple.

    I was with a girl who was accepting my dressing (she even made me up and took pics of me) and my dildos but she didn't like sex. She wasn't at ease with her body. I alsmot never saw her naked in 4 years !!

    Of course, some women, may be more than we expect are into weird sex.

    They seem more capable to have gay sex than men though and so sex gender oriented.

    If we were girl real women, we would find beeing a woman non exciting at all.

    We need to be women with a male brain so transexuals to fnd wearing stockings exciting.

    Most women don't care about stockings. The majority has even no garter in the closet !

    ReplyDelete
  6. You must probably go in some subculture like feminist activism or BDSM to find them.

    In BDSM spaces yes, in feminist spaces...no no no

    You are most definitely NOT going to find tranny lovers in feminist spaces occupied by women who had the privilege of being *born female*.

    Look at Michigan Womyn's Festival as a prime example; they let Trans Men into the festival but no Trans Women!!!

    ReplyDelete
  7. incidentally of number of trans men were *instrumental* in excluding trans women from that festival, which illustrates why there is no "dating service"...there is zero interest.

    ReplyDelete
  8. I know that some feminits don't like transexual because they consider that they are some kind of spy, encouraged by men to put troubles into the women's supposed unity. But other feminist are more open (see the gender queer studies in which you find real women who are not gay as well as gay women or transgender people)

    But fortunately, I am not a transexual.

    I just " sweat transvestite" !

    I love to dress more or less in DRAG and offer my ass !

    And I most of time I don't like to play the role of the stereotypical male in every day life. But I may like even less the female stereotypycal role as I am rather dominant in every day life and hate sexism.



    Thanks to this, I am not macho at all and consider that women or men are equal and that there is no reason to treat women like items.

    So this can interest a feminist.

    What is sure = a woman who is a conformist (mariage + kids = the goal in life) can not match me and will not interest me.

    ReplyDelete
  9. People who are into the transgender cilture, often talk about to express the woman inside, that they are women...

    But I never found any transgender telling that gender problems could come from some mental diseaase, a personality disorder or even some chemical balance problem, known or unknown. I have the feeling that transgender are the only people who have no nevrosis, no psychosis, no phobia when i listen to them...because all the non trans people have these states of mind !!!

    ALL transgener tell they are 100% balanced and almost tell the other people have a psychological problem to see the woman they thinks they are. See the attacks on Blanchard.

    In my case, I think that my gender isssue come from some complex mental disorders (I have a VERY narcisssitic personality and more or less borderline).

    I bet that I am FAR to be be anly case in this case among people who dress in DRAG.

    Of course, these desorders (who could be only seen as problematic when they provoke serious symptoms) lead us to human psyche, the Self, the Ego and so on.

    I am surprised that very few transgender seem to explore their psyche or at least never talk about it. They only tell : "I am a woman" or "I have a women part" and try hard to convince themselves that they are not "perverts", abnormal, sick...

    But even if they were "pervert", what would it change to their problem ? Not much. Only conformist people try to not be pervert and stick to moral and cultural rules.

    Transgender people are NOT normal as they are not like the majority so why trying to fit in ?

    Why should we aim to be normal ? Norms are often boring. I like to be not normal, original, queer...

    My only aim is to be happy, not suffering and capable to live an interesting life.

    Not to be a woman, a man, a husband, a father or whatever could be seen as normal.

    ReplyDelete
  10. I realiase that when I talk about falling in love or having a sexual attraction, I only talk about men and women but never about transexual people.

    I wonder why. Am i what I hate the most = a conformist ?!!!

    After all, why not loving a transexual woman if she looks sexy ?!!! The fact that for me she is not a woman but a transexual shouldn't be a turn off as I am a transgender too and see myself as mainly man and somewhat woman and have sex with men when dressed.

    I also like very feminin girls but they are conformists. I should rather date girls who have something masculin, girls who express the male side and don't try hard to be a barbie doll.

    Why not a feminin girlfag ?!!

    I am too much in gender topics, I will end up crazy and know even less what I want !!!!!

    HELP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The best is to be asexual = so no questions !

    ReplyDelete
  11. Do you know about this AG in closet ?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OXutPmrRnQ&feature=related

    ReplyDelete
  12. I found this interesting link =

    http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/BPD.htm

    ReplyDelete
  13. This is a fascinating post. I had no idea about this.

    Kind of opens up a whole new world for exploration!

    Getting kind of sick of guys and the way they treat t-girls, but the concept that there are actually dominant women out there seeking us is a mind-blower.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Anonymous,
    "
    Many women have a lack of sex drive as they seem to be more narcissic than attraced by men.
    "

    This is the reason why transvestites are hated upon by transsexuals and even the mainstream society. Yiu may be narcissistic, doesn't mean you now start generalizing it about women. Have you been a woman ever to know how much they are attracted to guys?
    There are some bisexual women (and even feminine bisexual males) who actually love women but have narcissistic tendicies towards men as they only love to tease and make men lustful towards them...but in reality, they actually like women more. But that is kinda rare.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Robbie Williams in drag. Hm, maybe he is a crossdreamer?

    I'll post it later on.

    Jack

    ReplyDelete
  16. As for crossdreamers being borderline. Maybe some are, but what comes first. Does the mental illness cause crossdreaming, or is it so hard to integrate crossdreaming into a regular love life that crossdreamers become ill.

    From what I have seen and heard the latter explanation is much more reasonable.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Read what women tell about their fantasies and look at how the act with men (they consider the man should do ALL to please them, that the man must pay all, that the man should make them the center of his life, that the man should agree to have kids because THEY want kids, that the man shoud by a new expensive and useless kitchen because THEY want a new kitchen while they don't even cook...) and you will see that they are much more narcissistic than men.

    They are much mor demanding than men = they always have some claims, the man must do that, not do that...

    Hence thet are more narcissitic. And this may be a social things as they are raised with the idea that a man will make them happy and that they should be pretty.

    ReplyDelete
  18. @Anonymous,

    Sure, there are women who are like that. There are also women who abuse their men, neglect their children and terrorize others. It seems to me you have met a few of these women.

    But I have also met women who are willing to sacrifice their own needs to make the ones they love happy. Who are patient and loving when their man is in pain. Who, together with their partner, give their children a stable and good childhood. Or who spend a whole career trying to make this world a better place for us all. In short: I have met women who are everything but narcissistic.

    In general I think most women are like the rest of us: altruistic on a good day and narcissistic on a bad.

    I do not know what has happened to you, but I can see that you have been through hell, and that experience have given you the convictions that both crossdreamers and women are narcissists. That leaves the "ordinary" men as the only ones who are not narcissistic. Maybe that is a start.

    ReplyDelete
  19. @ilas

    "Jack you should start a F2M & M2F dating service."

    Well someone should!

    "Submissive M2F crossdreamer seeks proactive F2M crossdreamer for love and devotion, hiking and creative role playing"

    ReplyDelete
  20. Anonymous,
    I understand what you say but then, you are only talking of the western ,especially American women who actually have been given that much power by society to exploit men. Do you know that lots of men in places like USA actually succumb and submit to such exploitative women just ebcause they have no other choice. Heterosexual norms indicate that men have to satisfy women on every count so as to prove themselves as real men. And masculine men have hardly any chance to escape this pressure, as otherwise they stand to lose their manhood status.
    These exploitative women have got the finest opportunity hence to make such things happen, especially after the rise of feminism.
    So, yes, their "narcissistic" mentality is actually a socially induced one rather than anything natural. If instead of feminist ideologies, they were told from childhood that they have to look after themselves and serve their men, you would have seen American women to be the same as the Asian counterparts.

    ReplyDelete
  21. I get the impression that, because of your deduction that women in general are "narcissistic", you have also turned narcissistic. This is because you as a crossdresser have some habit of subconsciously copying these traits of women you perceive in your day to day life.

    ReplyDelete
  22. I didn't talk about USA as I have never been in the USA.

    I talk about the psychanalytic theories on women in general and about what I see online.

    What balanced man could want a none western as you describe them ?

    I don't want a dumb woman with no personality who only lives to please a man. I want a woman who doesn't need a man to exist. Feminist is one of the best things that arrived to men as it has change the society in a positive way.

    I have been narcissistic before dressing in DRAG. I like to dress because I like to the be star, the one that all look at. And people look more on women.

    The fact is that women are no attracted physicaly by men but rather by what men can do to them sexuality.

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  23. " Feminist is one of the best things that arrived to men as it has change the society in a positive way.
    "

    I hardly hear a man believing this to be true, especially if he is a real man. Men have a duty to prove themselves as real men in society and it therefore serves men best when women stick to their traditional roles of pleasing men.
    Not that they oppose feminism always, but that does not mean they inherently would like that since it is only a sort of loss for them.
    I can clearly get the impression that you speak of women from a feminine point of view which is obvious because, you yourself are transgendered.

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  24. "The fact is that women are no attracted physicaly by men but rather by what men can do to them sexually."


    The majority of women aren't that way.
    There is a subset of bisexual women who actually are of exactly that type as you described. I found them in online forums discussing exactly about this male-fetish they have. They seem to emotionally love women more but they get aroused by what the males do to them sexually though not attracted to their bodies!
    There is one article on Vaneesa Carlton, I read earlier, which also described this phenomenon, and that also covers bisexual women.
    Hearing a similar experience from you, I think those who have these fetishes are usually somewhat bisexual (male or female).

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  25. Pinky, do you have a reference to this article? It seems very relevant.

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  26. " Men have a duty to prove themselves as real men in society and it therefore serves men best when women stick to their traditional roles of pleasing men "

    Since when having a duty to prove something is pleasant ?

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  27. Why would the women need to serve men ?

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  28. Jack,
    I am really quite sorry but I am unable to find the article right now. I read it a few months back. Basically this article focused on differences in sexuality between men and women. It said men are just simple and visual while women are highly complicated. They actually happen to find females more beautiful but have a sexual arousal to what men do with them, they are highly narcissistic.
    The problem was that it generalized on all women, but all the examples cited were of bisexual women (like Vaneesa Carlton, Lindsay Lohan or lady Gaga).
    Infact, not only ust bisexual but also outright androgynous.

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